Keris Found From A shipwreck

nechesh · 25th March 2005, 06:18 PM

Cool!

Combines two interests of mine at once, Archeology (especially marine) and, of course, keris. I think Blu might be on to something with a Sumatran attribution, but the blade could very well be a Javanese one in Sumatran dress. Not much to go on from the illustrations.
I agree with John that it doesn't appear particularly long, but the pictures could be deceptive. It doesn't appear to be a sundang. Bill, do you have a link to the releases that referred to it as such? I would have to disagree that a sundang and a keris are the same thing for all purposes, as you say. Kissing cousins, perhaps.

Also, i don't see anywhere where the ship is said to have been made in the Philippines. Is that also from the early report you saw?

fearn · 25th March 2005, 07:38 PM

Well, I'll admit I'm confused.

That third illustration looks like an x-ray view of a 9 or 11 luk blade inside the sheath. Am I the only one who sees it? All the comments I'm reading suggest that either no one else is seeing the posted pictures, or that I'm interpreting the last two in a dramatically different way than everyone else is.

What does everyone else see in the last two images?

Fearn

Bill · 25th March 2005, 07:45 PM

Think this must be the wreck that was mentioned awhile back, when it was first announced, it was mentioned in this forum. Seen the "Keris Sundang" label quite abit, think its even on a Malay postage stamp. Wonder why its being refered to as a Portuguese ship built in the PI, not doubting the experts, just interested in, why? Seems more likely the Portuguese would have seized the ship in an engagement or outright pirated it, than commissioned it. In this time period Spain & Portuguese had a treaty dividing the PI for Spain, & Celebes, Spice Islands to the later; but they both constantly violated thier agreement. Early Bugis did rely on the PI for its boat building so it does make sence the Portuguese in Celebes might do the same.

empu kumis · 25th March 2005, 10:18 PM

Hello Kerislovers,

its nice to see an old dateable keris but the seawater doen`t left much. From our old collections of the so called curiosity chambers of the nobles of good old Europe we have keris blades and sheaths in almost new condition from the 17th century. A must therfore is the book of:

Karsten Sejr Jensen 1998 Den Indonesiske kris - et symbolladet vaben

written in Danish ISSN 0108-707X. The evidence of their age are the old records of aquisition. On page 113 and 119 there are identical rattan binding of the sheath. The practice of rattan binding of goloks is still used inTorajaland. But I don`t believe this kerisses coming from Sulawesi. We just dont know how the Javanese kerisses before the 17th cent. has been looking. The blades are much better then the blades from Sulawesi or Sumatera and I`m almost sure they came from Java. The most interresting collection is in Dresden, Germany, Stockholm, Sweden, the Medici collection in Italy, Ethnographical Museum and in the Deutsch Orden Museum in Vienna, Austria. Al together I guess in Europe we have about 60 pieces from the 17th and 18th century and all well preserved. We have tried to find out about kerisses in Portugal but failed. But I know there are some. Its time for the proffesionals to make a real research.

nechesh · 25th March 2005, 11:45 PM

Fearn, if you look at the very bottom of the initial post you will see that the photos were not added for a couple of hours after the first posting. The first respondents did not, indeed, see the pics before posting. I think we all see the keris outline in the x-rays now.

Bill, a keris sundang is a very particular type of keris and i don't think this is one. While the linked article states they believe the ship was Portuguese, i see no mention of a PI origin there. Where are you getting this reference from?

Empu Kumis makes a good point that we don't really know exactly what the dress on really early keris looked liked. Rattan wrap wrongko may have been all the rage in Jawa at the time.
Also, i'm not sure finding this blade aboard is necessarily evidence that a Malay salior was onboard. This keris could very well have been collected by a Portuguese salior as a keepsake or prize.

Bill · 26th March 2005, 01:19 AM

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ticleid=132029 think this must be the same wreck, several news items have been released about it. Malays did sail on the European ships, both as pilots & translators. Many were "slaved" when needed, but doubt that they would be allowed a keris. Is the drawing from an X-ray? Would it not be better to cut the sheath in half & see what could be preserved of the blade or is it just going to crumble. Length of the sheath would be nice.

25th March 2005, 06:18 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Cool! Combines two interests of mine at once, Archeology (especially marine) and, of course, keris. I think Blu might be on to something with a Sumatran attribution, but the blade could very well be a Javanese one in Sumatran dress. Not much to go on from the illustrations. I agree with John that it doesn't appear particularly long, but the pictures could be deceptive. It doesn't appear to be a sundang. Bill, do you have a link to the releases that referred to it as such? I would have to disagree that a sundang and a keris are the same thing for all purposes, as you say. Kissing cousins, perhaps. Also, i don't see anywhere where the ship is said to have been made in the Philippines. Is that also from the early report you saw?

25th March 2005, 07:38 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Well, I'll admit I'm confused. That third illustration looks like an x-ray view of a 9 or 11 luk blade inside the sheath. Am I the only one who sees it? All the comments I'm reading suggest that either no one else is seeing the posted pictures, or that I'm interpreting the last two in a dramatically different way than everyone else is. What does everyone else see in the last two images? Fearn

25th March 2005, 07:45 PM	#3
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Think this must be the wreck that was mentioned awhile back, when it was first announced, it was mentioned in this forum. Seen the "Keris Sundang" label quite abit, think its even on a Malay postage stamp. Wonder why its being refered to as a Portuguese ship built in the PI, not doubting the experts, just interested in, why? Seems more likely the Portuguese would have seized the ship in an engagement or outright pirated it, than commissioned it. In this time period Spain & Portuguese had a treaty dividing the PI for Spain, & Celebes, Spice Islands to the later; but they both constantly violated thier agreement. Early Bugis did rely on the PI for its boat building so it does make sence the Portuguese in Celebes might do the same.

25th March 2005, 10:18 PM	#4
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Hello Kerislovers, its nice to see an old dateable keris but the seawater doen`t left much. From our old collections of the so called curiosity chambers of the nobles of good old Europe we have keris blades and sheaths in almost new condition from the 17th century. A must therfore is the book of: Karsten Sejr Jensen 1998 Den Indonesiske kris - et symbolladet vaben written in Danish ISSN 0108-707X. The evidence of their age are the old records of aquisition. On page 113 and 119 there are identical rattan binding of the sheath. The practice of rattan binding of goloks is still used inTorajaland. But I don`t believe this kerisses coming from Sulawesi. We just dont know how the Javanese kerisses before the 17th cent. has been looking. The blades are much better then the blades from Sulawesi or Sumatera and I`m almost sure they came from Java. The most interresting collection is in Dresden, Germany, Stockholm, Sweden, the Medici collection in Italy, Ethnographical Museum and in the Deutsch Orden Museum in Vienna, Austria. Al together I guess in Europe we have about 60 pieces from the 17th and 18th century and all well preserved. We have tried to find out about kerisses in Portugal but failed. But I know there are some. Its time for the proffesionals to make a real research.

25th March 2005, 11:45 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Fearn, if you look at the very bottom of the initial post you will see that the photos were not added for a couple of hours after the first posting. The first respondents did not, indeed, see the pics before posting. I think we all see the keris outline in the x-rays now. Bill, a keris sundang is a very particular type of keris and i don't think this is one. While the linked article states they believe the ship was Portuguese, i see no mention of a PI origin there. Where are you getting this reference from? Empu Kumis makes a good point that we don't really know exactly what the dress on really early keris looked liked. Rattan wrap wrongko may have been all the rage in Jawa at the time. Also, i'm not sure finding this blade aboard is necessarily evidence that a Malay salior was onboard. This keris could very well have been collected by a Portuguese salior as a keepsake or prize.

26th March 2005, 01:19 AM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ticleid=132029 think this must be the same wreck, several news items have been released about it. Malays did sail on the European ships, both as pilots & translators. Many were "slaved" when needed, but doubt that they would be allowed a keris. Is the drawing from an X-ray? Would it not be better to cut the sheath in half & see what could be preserved of the blade or is it just going to crumble. Length of the sheath would be nice.