Silver mounted badek for coments

fernando · 30th April 2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

I have read that it was already practised in the bronze age, and that has reached a notable perfection during Renaissance, so as later the Dutch works in the XVII century.

Tim Simmons · 30th April 2008, 07:06 PM

I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east.
First picture gold from Thrace. The second the Scythians. The thrid Peru. We could be loosing sight of the actual weapon which is quite pretty.

Gonzalo G · 30th April 2008, 08:05 PM

I agree with you, Tim. I find the scytian work specially good. Their mastery over this technique is incredible.

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2008, 12:40 AM

Fernando, I really see no problem with terminology at all.

Tim has given us the meanings of the terms, as they are used in the trade.

Gonzalo has reinforced Tim's explanation with a further trade reference.

I have given the meanings as they would be understood by an educated native English speaker who is not a silversmith or jeweller.

The link I provided in an earlier post sets out a very clear explanation:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

In common usage, I believe most native English speakers would refer to the work as "embossed". Although not strictly correct, this is completely acceptable, and incidentally comes close to your "stamped" meaning. Modern English grammar is concerned more with the way in which words are generally used, than with strict dictionary meanings.

However, what is of interest here is the opinion of your jeweller consultant that this work was done from the inside of the scabbard.

To my knowledge, the skill to create this motif from the inside of the scabbard has never existed in Jawa, nor in Indonesia. I am very familiar with this type of work, and it is done from the outside, after the scabbard has been fabricated. Tim, who is a skilled craftsman in this work, seems to be also of the opinion that it has been done from the outside.

Gonzalo G · 1st May 2008, 05:20 PM

I agree with this.

fernando · 1st May 2008, 07:48 PM

Absolutely Alan,
As i said, the guy is not a smith.
I can further say that, if i had to choose an option, i would obviously follow your exposition which, above all, is backed by experienced observation.
But i confess that, having been self influenced by the "repousse" aproach done by the various ( four?) members, and so having been "arrested" by the projection of the term, i was predisposed to easily beleive the guy when he said that the punching on the discussed scabbard was done ( at least partially) from the inside. To tell the truth, i still look at it and still don't reject such idea

.
Wasn't it Jesus thas said: the worst blind is the one that doesn't want to see?

fernando · 1st May 2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

... I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east ...

I was only quoting what is written, more to emphasize how old this craft is and the splendour it later achieved, and not wanting to mind any judgement of value. Besides, electing the best of anything in the world is allways naturally discussable

.
The pictures attached are of the famous Goa gold(en) helmet, an Indo Portuguese creation of the XVI century. It has (also) been exhibited in the Great India Exhibition, in the New York Metropolitan Museum, making part of the best four hundred art works from India. It ( supposedly) is the oldest representation of a hunting scene with firearms. A (Portuguese) hunter can be seen aiming at flying birds, with one falling after being shot.
The outer part of this helmet is in rather thick gold sheet, but the interior is "puxado" from one only piece of copper.
In this specific case, the term "puxado", which could be translated as "pushed" or "poussé", was used by a highly educated person.
I hope this piece is nice enough to deserve your apreciation

.
Fernando

Tim Simmons · 1st May 2008, 08:37 PM

Hhmmm, its okay figures could be more defined, not sure it fits in my collection, how much do you want for it? they are quite common.

30th April 2008, 07:06 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east. First picture gold from Thrace. The second the Scythians. The thrid Peru. We could be loosing sight of the actual weapon which is quite pretty. Attached Images

1st May 2008, 07:48 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Absolutely Alan, As i said, the guy is not a smith. I can further say that, if i had to choose an option, i would obviously follow your exposition which, above all, is backed by experienced observation. But i confess that, having been self influenced by the "repousse" aproach done by the various ( four?) members, and so having been "arrested" by the projection of the term, i was predisposed to easily beleive the guy when he said that the punching on the discussed scabbard was done ( at least partially) from the inside. To tell the truth, i still look at it and still don't reject such idea . Wasn't it Jesus thas said: the worst blind is the one that doesn't want to see? Last edited by fernando; 1st May 2008 at 11:20 PM.

30th April 2008, 08:05 PM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I agree with you, Tim. I find the scytian work specially good. Their mastery over this technique is incredible.

1st May 2008, 12:40 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Fernando, I really see no problem with terminology at all. Tim has given us the meanings of the terms, as they are used in the trade. Gonzalo has reinforced Tim's explanation with a further trade reference. I have given the meanings as they would be understood by an educated native English speaker who is not a silversmith or jeweller. The link I provided in an earlier post sets out a very clear explanation:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing In common usage, I believe most native English speakers would refer to the work as "embossed". Although not strictly correct, this is completely acceptable, and incidentally comes close to your "stamped" meaning. Modern English grammar is concerned more with the way in which words are generally used, than with strict dictionary meanings. However, what is of interest here is the opinion of your jeweller consultant that this work was done from the inside of the scabbard. To my knowledge, the skill to create this motif from the inside of the scabbard has never existed in Jawa, nor in Indonesia. I am very familiar with this type of work, and it is done from the outside, after the scabbard has been fabricated. Tim, who is a skilled craftsman in this work, seems to be also of the opinion that it has been done from the outside.

1st May 2008, 05:20 PM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I agree with this.

1st May 2008, 08:37 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Hhmmm, its okay figures could be more defined, not sure it fits in my collection, how much do you want for it? they are quite common.