Silver mounted badek for coments

Andrew · 29th April 2008, 05:56 AM

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2008, 09:49 AM

Although the English language can be an incredibly difficult language to use correctly, one of the great advantages of this language is that it is extremely flexible, and there are many forms and levels of expression within the language that can be acceptable . Most professions and trades have their own use for English words, and these trade usages very often are incorrect when measured by the meanings accepted in Standard English, which is the form of the English Language regarded as the norm for an educated person.

I think we can accept that within the silversmithing craft, Tim's use of repousse, and repoussage is inarguably accurate.

However, that accuracy of usage does not carry over into Standard English.

Yes, it is true that a living language develops and changes structure and meaning over time. Equally it is true that the various colloquial forms of the English Language vary from the Standard form of the language. However, since we are not all members of the silversmithing craft, and since there are defined and accurate terms available to describe this work under discussion, perhaps it might be advisable to use these Standard English terms in order to avoid confusion.

(Standard English:- "Standard English is that set of grammatical and lexical forms which is typically used in speech and writing by educated native speakers. It includes the use of colloquial and slang vocabulary, as well as swear words and taboo expressions."---Trudgill)

Within Standard English, the meanings of repousse (repoussage) and chasing are still current, and as I have given them.It not archaic usage, nor is it even slightly dated usage. It is correct usage for any educated person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

Tim Simmons · 29th April 2008, 05:57 PM

All I can add is that my colleagues and I employ "chasers" chaps that cut details into work. These craftspeople can create incredible effects and textures to the metal surface. Like making textures of clothing, hair and cutting some of the most sensitive of detail not just in a by numbers fashion. As I said earlier I an not an expert.

Mark · 29th April 2008, 07:47 PM

Completely OT - what is your new avatar, Tim? It looks like a Paleolithic mother goddess figurine.

Gonzalo G · 30th April 2008, 05:57 AM

Tim, beyond the subject of what is "more correct" or not in the case of this term, which is a subject of controversy, I thank you for making me understanding why the term is used idistinctly in both cases. I find that your explanation is a good and valid answer to my original question. As I said, you gave me an enlightment about another element of your languaje which I did not understand and always gave me a problem when I read it, as in the comments about Fernando´s badek silversmithing work. Very kind of you making this effort to explain.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Tim Simmons · 30th April 2008, 09:16 AM

Mark you are on the right track. The avatar is a carved whale bone scapula} fan with the image of Dilukai from the Caroline islands most probably Belau/Palau. A prestige mans artifact. Whales also have spiritual significant as do artifacts made from there bones. This link gives some good in formation, scroll down to "Art"
http://ps.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%BE%...84%D8%A7%D9%88

It is one of if not the most treasured item I have. Lew gave us a glimpse of her virtue in this thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6163

Here is more. You have to admit its a bit nice.

fernando · 30th April 2008, 05:24 PM

Feeling a bit dizzy within such vast universe of considerations, let me post here some loose notes, not without apologizing for their percentage of nonsense

.
... Certainly the channel of comunication here is in english but, as we all understand, the diverse senses of its interpretation are less vital than the intrinsecal subject under apreciation, which certainly is not a ( english ) language dissection but how the object, in this case a badik scabbard, was produced, whether in an Asian or Western dialect, as long as mutual understanding may be achieved ... beyond academic, technical or current terminology.
... "Repoussé", from "repoussage", is a galicism; among other reasons, this means that the term was borrowed from french language speakers. Its use was probably preferred in other languages because either it has achieved a certain charisma or its translation would not be faithfull to the action in question, or the like.
... If we consider the strict translation of the term, we will have "re-pushed", right ? But while (at least) in coloquial French (and Portuguese) "pushing" and "pulling" are quite distinguishable, both dictionaries expand the possibility of, contextualy, "pushing" meaning also "pulling" ... for what matters.
... It could also happen that, while the discussed "repoussé" signification diverts or expands in certain languages, it remains with its strict original meaning in other/s ... not minding if this happens in its native language or in other. This to say that, while for the French (for example) could still only mean punched ( or stretched) by the converse side, for the British or Mexicans could already refer to punch from both sides of the material.
... It apears that "repoussé" is not much used in Portuguese, except maybe for some bourgeois, for whom galicisms are (still) rafineé; "repuxado", and sometimes "puxado" is what is largely used here, "puxado" being more on the verbal side.
... I have shown this badik to a local jewelery shop owner; he reckons that the work was done from the inside, with also some detail by the outside.
He added that the term "repuxado" is now currently called "estampado" (stamped), probably because nowadays these works are mechanicaly made. However he is not a smith, for what counts.
... On the other hand, i guess that the distinction in the term/s atribution by either technicians and laymen is not so just "black and white"; through time, technicians were (some still are) empirical craftsmen and not "educated" persons, giving the action their own version of the term, or the term their own meaning . Is it not due to the frequent "corruption" of the terms by "non educated" people that linguistic conventions end up officializing them and include them in the dictionaries?
... Let me stop, before you through your wrath versus my ignorance

.

30th April 2008, 09:16 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Mark you are on the right track. The avatar is a carved whale bone scapula} fan with the image of Dilukai from the Caroline islands most probably Belau/Palau. A prestige mans artifact. Whales also have spiritual significant as do artifacts made from there bones. This link gives some good in formation, scroll down to "Art" http://ps.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%BE%...84%D8%A7%D9%88 It is one of if not the most treasured item I have. Lew gave us a glimpse of her virtue in this thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6163 Here is more. You have to admit its a bit nice. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th April 2008 at 09:32 AM.

29th April 2008, 05:56 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725

29th April 2008, 09:49 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Although the English language can be an incredibly difficult language to use correctly, one of the great advantages of this language is that it is extremely flexible, and there are many forms and levels of expression within the language that can be acceptable . Most professions and trades have their own use for English words, and these trade usages very often are incorrect when measured by the meanings accepted in Standard English, which is the form of the English Language regarded as the norm for an educated person. I think we can accept that within the silversmithing craft, Tim's use of repousse, and repoussage is inarguably accurate. However, that accuracy of usage does not carry over into Standard English. Yes, it is true that a living language develops and changes structure and meaning over time. Equally it is true that the various colloquial forms of the English Language vary from the Standard form of the language. However, since we are not all members of the silversmithing craft, and since there are defined and accurate terms available to describe this work under discussion, perhaps it might be advisable to use these Standard English terms in order to avoid confusion. (Standard English:- "Standard English is that set of grammatical and lexical forms which is typically used in speech and writing by educated native speakers. It includes the use of colloquial and slang vocabulary, as well as swear words and taboo expressions."---Trudgill) Within Standard English, the meanings of repousse (repoussage) and chasing are still current, and as I have given them.It not archaic usage, nor is it even slightly dated usage. It is correct usage for any educated person. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

29th April 2008, 05:57 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	All I can add is that my colleagues and I employ "chasers" chaps that cut details into work. These craftspeople can create incredible effects and textures to the metal surface. Like making textures of clothing, hair and cutting some of the most sensitive of detail not just in a by numbers fashion. As I said earlier I an not an expert.

29th April 2008, 07:47 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Completely OT - what is your new avatar, Tim? It looks like a Paleolithic mother goddess figurine.

30th April 2008, 05:57 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Tim, beyond the subject of what is "more correct" or not in the case of this term, which is a subject of controversy, I thank you for making me understanding why the term is used idistinctly in both cases. I find that your explanation is a good and valid answer to my original question. As I said, you gave me an enlightment about another element of your languaje which I did not understand and always gave me a problem when I read it, as in the comments about Fernando´s badek silversmithing work. Very kind of you making this effort to explain. My best regards Gonzalo

30th April 2008, 05:24 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Feeling a bit dizzy within such vast universe of considerations, let me post here some loose notes, not without apologizing for their percentage of nonsense . ... Certainly the channel of comunication here is in english but, as we all understand, the diverse senses of its interpretation are less vital than the intrinsecal subject under apreciation, which certainly is not a ( english ) language dissection but how the object, in this case a badik scabbard, was produced, whether in an Asian or Western dialect, as long as mutual understanding may be achieved ... beyond academic, technical or current terminology. ... "Repoussé", from "repoussage", is a galicism; among other reasons, this means that the term was borrowed from french language speakers. Its use was probably preferred in other languages because either it has achieved a certain charisma or its translation would not be faithfull to the action in question, or the like. ... If we consider the strict translation of the term, we will have "re-pushed", right ? But while (at least) in coloquial French (and Portuguese) "pushing" and "pulling" are quite distinguishable, both dictionaries expand the possibility of, contextualy, "pushing" meaning also "pulling" ... for what matters. ... It could also happen that, while the discussed "repoussé" signification diverts or expands in certain languages, it remains with its strict original meaning in other/s ... not minding if this happens in its native language or in other. This to say that, while for the French (for example) could still only mean punched ( or stretched) by the converse side, for the British or Mexicans could already refer to punch from both sides of the material. ... It apears that "repoussé" is not much used in Portuguese, except maybe for some bourgeois, for whom galicisms are (still) rafineé; "repuxado", and sometimes "puxado" is what is largely used here, "puxado" being more on the verbal side. ... I have shown this badik to a local jewelery shop owner; he reckons that the work was done from the inside, with also some detail by the outside. He added that the term "repuxado" is now currently called "estampado" (stamped), probably because nowadays these works are mechanicaly made. However he is not a smith, for what counts. ... On the other hand, i guess that the distinction in the term/s atribution by either technicians and laymen is not so just "black and white"; through time, technicians were (some still are) empirical craftsmen and not "educated" persons, giving the action their own version of the term, or the term their own meaning . Is it not due to the frequent "corruption" of the terms by "non educated" people that linguistic conventions end up officializing them and include them in the dictionaries? ... Let me stop, before you through your wrath versus my ignorance .