An Unusual Ethiopian Short Sword

spiral · 25th March 2005, 03:00 PM

What a fascinating collection Derek! Great pieces. very interesting! my tastes are broadening!

Thankyou!

I know the Austrian thalers used on some of the east African pieces are usualy dated 1780 but if they have an x after the date it means they are much more recent restrikes.

But I expect you knew that already!

Spiral

derek · 25th March 2005, 06:51 PM

Tom,

Very good observations -- I definitely see the billao in the grip, as you say.

Mark,

Your points on the history of the region are dead on, there are 101 ways those coins could have found themselves there.

I was looking at this piece as "gurade-like" in general style and that had me focusing on an Amharic-speaking, Abyssinian origin. Maybe that's not the case at all.

Just curious, Spiral: why would they restrike a 1780 coin in quantities? There are many Abyssinian swords that bear this coin on the pommel. I haven't collected coins since I was a kid, is this commonly done?

Yannis,

there are many fine Abyssinian swords to be found all over Italy. It would be an easy trip for you (at least easier than for me). In fact, Czerny's usually has some very good ones on auction.

spiral · 25th March 2005, 07:04 PM

Here is an article about them from a leading UK bullion supplier that may help with thier history Derek.

I have also heard it said by a dealer in coins , that it was liked because it featured a large european woman,with an uncovered face.

Apparently queen Victoria gold soveriegns were popular in some countrys for the same reason..... They were considered "Naughty" in some way.

Have you ever seen a sword with a Thaler that doesnt have the restrike X on it?

Spiral.
.................................................. .........................

The world`s most famous silver coin.
The Empress Maria Theresa (1740-1780)

The 1780 Taler
The silver taler was the currency of the Empire and of the Austrian hereditary lands. The silver taler was very important for trade with the Levant (parts of Turkey, Lebanon, Syria) and the Maria Theresa Taler became the best known and most popular silver coin in the Arabian world. After the death of the Empress, Joseph II permitted the mint at Günzburg (today in Bavaria, but at that time Austrian territory) to continue striking with the 1780 dies in order to meet the demand from the Middle East. The 1780 taler was the only silver coin that the Arabs trusted and would accept. Thus began the long minting history of the "Levantine Taler" of the Empress Maria Theresa. Since then the Günzburg taler has been restruck for trade purposes at Vienna, as well as at mints in Prague, Milan and Venice from time to time. The taler became the unofficial currency of some of the lands in North Africa, and it can still be found today in many Arabian bazaars. This version of the taler became so important that it was restruck even in London, Bombay, Paris and Rome. The "Levantine Taler" lost its status as legal tender in Austria in 1858, but thanks to an imperial edict of 1857 as well as the present laws of the Austrian Republic, the mint at Vienna still produces this famous trade-taler down to the present day.

How Many?
According to Krause, there have been an estimated 800 million Maria Theresa thalers struck since 1780.

Specifications
Diameter 39.5 mm
Silver Content 833.3 / 1000
Copper Content 166.6 / 1000
Total Weight 28.0668 grams
Fine Weight (Actual Silver Content) 23.3890 grams
Fine Weight (Actual Silver Content) 0.7520 ounces

derek · 26th March 2005, 10:52 PM

800 million?? Man, people must be tripping over them.....

Thank you for posting the info. I've wondered about that coin popping up on Abyssinian swords for some time now.

Here is an ended auction with a couple of interesting fellows (the spears are nice too). They look a lot like mine, but less ornate:

6517797165

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6517797165

These don't pop up much. At least I haven't seen them often. Is this a style that someone has seen documented?

-Derek

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2005, 03:16 PM

Hi Derek,
As I look at this interesting weapon I think of Arabian janbiyyas from the Hijaz (sabik) as well as the 'gile' from Danakil regions. There seem to be pronounced influences from the Moroccan koummya as well, especially in the fretted scabbard and the element at the tip resembling the 'thum' on these as well as other janbiyya.
I would consider this possibly from Djibouti in Afars and Issas territory or Somalia, where both Abyssinian and Moroccan influences confluence via Red Sea trade routes. It seems that in earlier research it has become apparant that Morocco, although essentially transcontinental geographically, had significant trade ties both maritime and via trans-Saharan caravan routes.The so called 'Zanzibar' swords ('I' form hilt) as seen in Burton I have found to actually be s'boula from Morocco (Buttin) and are found in Ethiopia as well only in very limited occurence. It is interesting also that the curious so called Berber sabres with oddly profiled tip sabre blades have scabbards similar to the perpandicular appendage on Ethiopian sword seen in Spring, "African Arms & Armour".
This example seems earlier to mid 20th c. as the bands in the hilt seem to suggest that but I cannot expand further on that speculation.
Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 28th March 2005, 03:50 PM

"One Uzbekistan sword I have was purchased by a Michigan college professor from a camel caravan camped outside of Jerusalem in the early 1990's, indicating that some old ways continue on, even today.
Mike "

Mike,
Can you post pics of that one ? I am very interested to see it!!!

Conogre · 29th March 2005, 05:31 PM

I was away for a couple of days, guys, sorry, and e-mailed the photos directly to Ariel.
It's a contemporary piece, nice for what it is, but nothing like the older pieces so I'll not unintentionally hijack another thread with it! **grin**
Derek, a question if I may...how do you explain the bakelite hilt on the one gurade with the Solingen blade?
I'm not doubting you, just the opposite, but find it both curious and fascinating.
I have to admit to being extremely envious of all of these beauties....very well done!
Mike

25th March 2005, 03:00 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	What a fascinating collection Derek! Great pieces. very interesting! my tastes are broadening! Thankyou! I know the Austrian thalers used on some of the east African pieces are usualy dated 1780 but if they have an x after the date it means they are much more recent restrikes. But I expect you knew that already! Spiral Last edited by spiral; 25th March 2005 at 06:48 PM.

25th March 2005, 07:04 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Here is an article about them from a leading UK bullion supplier that may help with thier history Derek. I have also heard it said by a dealer in coins , that it was liked because it featured a large european woman,with an uncovered face. Apparently queen Victoria gold soveriegns were popular in some countrys for the same reason..... They were considered "Naughty" in some way. Have you ever seen a sword with a Thaler that doesnt have the restrike X on it? Spiral. .................................................. ......................... The world`s most famous silver coin. The Empress Maria Theresa (1740-1780) The 1780 Taler The silver taler was the currency of the Empire and of the Austrian hereditary lands. The silver taler was very important for trade with the Levant (parts of Turkey, Lebanon, Syria) and the Maria Theresa Taler became the best known and most popular silver coin in the Arabian world. After the death of the Empress, Joseph II permitted the mint at Günzburg (today in Bavaria, but at that time Austrian territory) to continue striking with the 1780 dies in order to meet the demand from the Middle East. The 1780 taler was the only silver coin that the Arabs trusted and would accept. Thus began the long minting history of the "Levantine Taler" of the Empress Maria Theresa. Since then the Günzburg taler has been restruck for trade purposes at Vienna, as well as at mints in Prague, Milan and Venice from time to time. The taler became the unofficial currency of some of the lands in North Africa, and it can still be found today in many Arabian bazaars. This version of the taler became so important that it was restruck even in London, Bombay, Paris and Rome. The "Levantine Taler" lost its status as legal tender in Austria in 1858, but thanks to an imperial edict of 1857 as well as the present laws of the Austrian Republic, the mint at Vienna still produces this famous trade-taler down to the present day. How Many? According to Krause, there have been an estimated 800 million Maria Theresa thalers struck since 1780. Specifications Diameter 39.5 mm Silver Content 833.3 / 1000 Copper Content 166.6 / 1000 Total Weight 28.0668 grams Fine Weight (Actual Silver Content) 23.3890 grams Fine Weight (Actual Silver Content) 0.7520 ounces Last edited by spiral; 25th March 2005 at 10:18 PM.

28th March 2005, 03:16 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Hi Derek, As I look at this interesting weapon I think of Arabian janbiyyas from the Hijaz (sabik) as well as the 'gile' from Danakil regions. There seem to be pronounced influences from the Moroccan koummya as well, especially in the fretted scabbard and the element at the tip resembling the 'thum' on these as well as other janbiyya. I would consider this possibly from Djibouti in Afars and Issas territory or Somalia, where both Abyssinian and Moroccan influences confluence via Red Sea trade routes. It seems that in earlier research it has become apparant that Morocco, although essentially transcontinental geographically, had significant trade ties both maritime and via trans-Saharan caravan routes.The so called 'Zanzibar' swords ('I' form hilt) as seen in Burton I have found to actually be s'boula from Morocco (Buttin) and are found in Ethiopia as well only in very limited occurence. It is interesting also that the curious so called Berber sabres with oddly profiled tip sabre blades have scabbards similar to the perpandicular appendage on Ethiopian sword seen in Spring, "African Arms & Armour". This example seems earlier to mid 20th c. as the bands in the hilt seem to suggest that but I cannot expand further on that speculation. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th March 2005 at 08:40 PM.

25th March 2005, 06:51 PM	#2
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Tom, Very good observations -- I definitely see the billao in the grip, as you say. Mark, Your points on the history of the region are dead on, there are 101 ways those coins could have found themselves there. I was looking at this piece as "gurade-like" in general style and that had me focusing on an Amharic-speaking, Abyssinian origin. Maybe that's not the case at all. Just curious, Spiral: why would they restrike a 1780 coin in quantities? There are many Abyssinian swords that bear this coin on the pommel. I haven't collected coins since I was a kid, is this commonly done? Yannis, there are many fine Abyssinian swords to be found all over Italy. It would be an easy trip for you (at least easier than for me). In fact, Czerny's usually has some very good ones on auction.

26th March 2005, 10:52 PM	#4
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	800 million?? Man, people must be tripping over them..... Thank you for posting the info. I've wondered about that coin popping up on Abyssinian swords for some time now. Here is an ended auction with a couple of interesting fellows (the spears are nice too). They look a lot like mine, but less ornate: 6517797165 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6517797165 These don't pop up much. At least I haven't seen them often. Is this a style that someone has seen documented? -Derek

28th March 2005, 03:50 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"One Uzbekistan sword I have was purchased by a Michigan college professor from a camel caravan camped outside of Jerusalem in the early 1990's, indicating that some old ways continue on, even today. Mike " Mike, Can you post pics of that one ? I am very interested to see it!!!

29th March 2005, 05:31 PM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I was away for a couple of days, guys, sorry, and e-mailed the photos directly to Ariel. It's a contemporary piece, nice for what it is, but nothing like the older pieces so I'll not unintentionally hijack another thread with it! grin Derek, a question if I may...how do you explain the bakelite hilt on the one gurade with the Solingen blade? I'm not doubting you, just the opposite, but find it both curious and fascinating. I have to admit to being extremely envious of all of these beauties....very well done! Mike