SnakeSkin w/ Engraveing Sword

drzzzzz · 24th March 2005, 03:38 AM

Here are some pics that I need some feedback on..The sword measures 27 inches w/ sometype of engraving on both sides..and the scabbard seems to be snakeskin...Any info on this item would be appriciated..Thx

tom hyle · 24th March 2005, 03:47 AM

Unusual sheath and pommel, but I think this fits broadly into the category of kaskara, and will be from the Sudannic region, in Africa. The probably religious etching on the blade and the Turkish/Persian(?) style guard are fairly typical. It may be a version from a tribe or region we don't see many of these from (not neccessarily because they don't have them), or I suppose it may be individualistic. Are there hanging rings on the sheath, or is that a feature of your carpet? What are the two brownish dots on the grip?
Much more interesting than the newish Chinese sword I was expecting from the written description.

Conogre · 24th March 2005, 09:08 AM

Wow!
Is it sharp or does it appear as if it had been sharpened at one time?
The skin is from a desert monitor lizard rather than a snake and looks like it's probably from a Savanah monitor.
The guard appears to be a kaskara, saif or scimitar type sword, while the pommel is distinctly un-kaskara, which usually has a flat disc.
That's a LOT of writing on the blade, the primary reason why I asked about the edge, as it almost looks like it could be a ceremonial or temple sword rather than a fighting weapon.
Again, from just the photos, I don't see any type of a fuller or groove in the blade, nor any thinning towards the edge as would be expected with an oval or diamond profile.
VERY interesting and not an average piece, which of course, means that I'm hooked and curious!**grin**
Mike

tom hyle · 24th March 2005, 02:33 PM

But the pommel does fairly closely resemble those on some fairly common African daggers, though I'm not sure whose/which; knowing that may be the clue.

Yannis · 24th March 2005, 04:00 PM

drzzzzz
I have nothing to add about qualities or origin of the sword but it looks it needs a simple cleaning and definitely to stop the active rust. You can use a WD-40 or something similar to do it. We had a topic about how we clean and protect a sword in this forum, but I cant find it now.

derek · 24th March 2005, 04:05 PM

Hi Allen,

Good to see you followed through and posted this one. It seems that the consensus so far is that is like a kaskara, but with a few un-kaskara like qualities. The guard looks like if was taken from another sword. The pommel reminds me of the daggers from Cameroon with the stitched leather grips.

Isn't the writing down the length of the blade seen frequently on kaskaras? Maybe I'm imaginging it, but I'm sure I've seen a few others.

Also, there is no flare at the tip of the scabbard.

-d

Conogre · 24th March 2005, 05:08 PM

The pommel type being referred to is usually seen on the arm knive of the Tebu of N. Africa if I remember correctly, and honestly, this sword doesn't look like a kaskara to me in anything but general shape.
Many Muslim blades contain writings and verses from the Koran, occasionally the name of the smith and/or owner as well, but on this one it appears as if the entire blade is covered, right up to the edge, which is why I asked about an edge....on a sword used as a weapon, the inlaid writing would seem likely to have been worn off a little each time the piece was sharpened.
Tom's question about the rings for hanging from a baldric are also pertinent, as it could possibly show the difference between a valuable antique and a cobbled together tourist piece that was being passed off.
As I said, I find this piece interesting because of the many unusual qualities, but also just a little suspicious as well.
If that is a purportedly recent aquisition, even the rust could be an indicator as it's highly unlikely that a tribesman would allow it to fall into such a state...rust can indicate much more than just age.
As to whether the Tebu use or used any type of sword themselves, I honestly don't know, but even here, while the shape is correct, I've never seen one with the pommel covered in leather, with it usually being bare iron/steel on the arm knives and the hilt proper wrapped in leather.
At this stage, I hope that you didn't tie up too much in it.
Mike

derek · 24th March 2005, 05:33 PM

Well, I went back and found the post on the leather stitched example I was thinking of. Actually, Conogre had posted a comment on it, so I know there is at least one you've seen! The pics are gone now, but someone else did note that looked like a more modern interpretation of the style.

Could be that this one is "newer" than it appears at first glance. Still, an interesting sword. A pair of matching boots would look nice with that scabbard.

-d

derek · 24th March 2005, 05:35 PM

BTW, I would recommend wiping that blade down repeatedly with an oiled cloth.

-d

Conogre · 24th March 2005, 05:48 PM

Sheeesh, Derek.....I'd rather have the lizard that the leather came from! **grin**
The rust on the blade seems rather deep in some areas and almost non-existant in others, with the inlaying seeming to be uncommonly clear even in heavily rusted areas.
As to what I've seen or not seen, nowdays I'd have to take your word on it....I forgot how old I was for two years,
and no comments about sharpness either!!**grin**
Mike

derek · 24th March 2005, 05:54 PM

Man, I had a friend that kept monitors years ago (name was also Derek, coincidentally) and they are mean as hell. One of them actually shattered the glass on a tank just eating a meal!! (meal=very unfortunate rat)

ariel · 24th March 2005, 06:03 PM

My son just got himself a baby Chinese Bearded Dragon. They are supposed to be very friendly even at full length (~ a foot) but you should only hear the crunch of crickets in it's mouth and shudder... Adults eat live mice....
Do you think it will make a good cutting test target?

Conogre · 24th March 2005, 06:13 PM

If you want to have fun, sit and very slowly wave one hand at the little dragon........there's a good chance it will wave back at you.
Bearded dragons are omnivores that consume both insects, fruit and vegetables, with the occasional smaller lizard, and when they say "mice" they mean newborn pinkies too young to have hair.
An adult mouse is capable of severely injuring even a full grown bearded dragon (there are 5 species)of the larger types as they aren't particularly aggressive, except to other male bearded dragons....the term bearded, by the way, comes from an expandable throat covered in sharp spines and which turns black in courting males.
They can be quick enough that blade damage could be incurred from striking where the lizard WAS, or through it if hit.
I myself like to test blades on people who test them on lizards!**grin**
I admit to being predjudiced, as I've never had a lizard lie to me or try to do harm, unlike many "intelligent"animals.
Mike

ariel · 24th March 2005, 07:43 PM

Mike,
You sound suspiciously like my son.
Was he in secret contact with you to assuage his Dad's fears?
Lizards, snakes and the rest of cold-blooded creatures terrify me; they are just pitbulls with pea-sized brains and no social skills. Remember the movies "Alligator!", "Anaconda" and "Jurassic Park"?
There are these Sudanese Kaskaras with the scabbards made of the entire croc: awful sight..... Will never buy one.

BSMStar · 24th March 2005, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Mike,
You sound suspiciously like my son.
Was he in secret contact with you to assuage his Dad's fears?
Lizards, snakes and the rest of cold-blooded creatures terrify me; they are just pitbulls with pea-sized brains and no social skills. Remember the movies "Alligator!", "Anaconda" and "Jurassic Park"?

ariel,

I don't think they mean to play on your fears.... you are just talking about something big, angry and looking for something to eat... never mind, I think I will join you... that's beginning to sound like my wife.

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 07:08 AM

Derek, can you elaborate on what you find unkaskaroid about the guard? Is it the roundness of the quillons? The finials? I'm not disagreeing; I'd like to be better able to regionalize/ethnically ID these type guards.
Conogre, I'm pretty sure that's not inlay on the blade, but etching with a lowered "ground" and raised letters. It appears to have rusted and pitted at some time, been polished (with a flat stone or sandpaper, etc?) across the tops of the raised letters, leaving the ground pitted, then rusted a bit again.
I wasn't thinking of the Tebu daggers, actually; there is another type, and I'm not sure if it's an arm dagger or not, though it certainly resembles one; it has a pommel this exact shape, integral to the usually wooden handle, and a similar shape at the tip of the usually nonleathered wooden sheath. I've seen two sold on ebay lately, at least one as Oceanic/Pacific, but I'm pretty sure they're African. I don't know if I still have one on my "watching" page, but I'll check later.

Conogre · 25th March 2005, 09:16 AM

As an admitted animal fan, Ariel and BSMStar, even terms like "cold blooded" seem to fit people better than reptiles...you have to keep in mind that I spent more than a few years dealing with what people do to each other on a surprisingly regular basis.**grin**
As to the movies, alas, here too we have a case where people's fears are played upon specifiacally to instill fear and horror and often to usually have little to do with what the animals REALLY do, which is usually actually beneficial in the real world (BUT doesn't sell movie tickets! **grin**)
Tell your son to feel free to e-mail me for assistance should he ever need it, or even just moral support.
Let's just say my youth was somewhat troubled as my appreciation and love of animals was NOT a shared family trait or interest, and that even peaceful species seemed to insist on attacking my father just to exacerbate the situation....ever see a killer pigeon? **BIG grin**
With that said, I'll apologize and quit hijacking the thread...sorry, sorry, sorry.
As to the guard on this piece, bronze isn't common, although not unheard of, and likewise sculpted or shaped quillons are unusual, with the vast majority of kaskaras having them plain and straight, although fairly commonlly octagonal or sextagonal in profile.
Although probably subjective, it just doesn't "feel" right to me.
Mike

24th March 2005, 03:38 AM	#1
drzzzzz Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9	SnakeSkin w/ Engraveing Sword Here are some pics that I need some feedback on..The sword measures 27 inches w/ sometype of engraving on both sides..and the scabbard seems to be snakeskin...Any info on this item would be appriciated..Thx Attached Images

24th March 2005, 03:47 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Unusual sheath and pommel, but I think this fits broadly into the category of kaskara, and will be from the Sudannic region, in Africa. The probably religious etching on the blade and the Turkish/Persian(?) style guard are fairly typical. It may be a version from a tribe or region we don't see many of these from (not neccessarily because they don't have them), or I suppose it may be individualistic. Are there hanging rings on the sheath, or is that a feature of your carpet? What are the two brownish dots on the grip? Much more interesting than the newish Chinese sword I was expecting from the written description. Last edited by tom hyle; 24th March 2005 at 05:03 AM.

24th March 2005, 09:08 AM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Wow! Is it sharp or does it appear as if it had been sharpened at one time? The skin is from a desert monitor lizard rather than a snake and looks like it's probably from a Savanah monitor. The guard appears to be a kaskara, saif or scimitar type sword, while the pommel is distinctly un-kaskara, which usually has a flat disc. That's a LOT of writing on the blade, the primary reason why I asked about the edge, as it almost looks like it could be a ceremonial or temple sword rather than a fighting weapon. Again, from just the photos, I don't see any type of a fuller or groove in the blade, nor any thinning towards the edge as would be expected with an oval or diamond profile. VERY interesting and not an average piece, which of course, means that I'm hooked and curious!grin Mike

24th March 2005, 02:33 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	But the pommel does fairly closely resemble those on some fairly common African daggers, though I'm not sure whose/which; knowing that may be the clue.

24th March 2005, 04:00 PM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	drzzzzz I have nothing to add about qualities or origin of the sword but it looks it needs a simple cleaning and definitely to stop the active rust. You can use a WD-40 or something similar to do it. We had a topic about how we clean and protect a sword in this forum, but I cant find it now.

24th March 2005, 04:05 PM	#6
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Allen, Good to see you followed through and posted this one. It seems that the consensus so far is that is like a kaskara, but with a few un-kaskara like qualities. The guard looks like if was taken from another sword. The pommel reminds me of the daggers from Cameroon with the stitched leather grips. Isn't the writing down the length of the blade seen frequently on kaskaras? Maybe I'm imaginging it, but I'm sure I've seen a few others. Also, there is no flare at the tip of the scabbard. -d

24th March 2005, 05:08 PM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	The pommel type being referred to is usually seen on the arm knive of the Tebu of N. Africa if I remember correctly, and honestly, this sword doesn't look like a kaskara to me in anything but general shape. Many Muslim blades contain writings and verses from the Koran, occasionally the name of the smith and/or owner as well, but on this one it appears as if the entire blade is covered, right up to the edge, which is why I asked about an edge....on a sword used as a weapon, the inlaid writing would seem likely to have been worn off a little each time the piece was sharpened. Tom's question about the rings for hanging from a baldric are also pertinent, as it could possibly show the difference between a valuable antique and a cobbled together tourist piece that was being passed off. As I said, I find this piece interesting because of the many unusual qualities, but also just a little suspicious as well. If that is a purportedly recent aquisition, even the rust could be an indicator as it's highly unlikely that a tribesman would allow it to fall into such a state...rust can indicate much more than just age. As to whether the Tebu use or used any type of sword themselves, I honestly don't know, but even here, while the shape is correct, I've never seen one with the pommel covered in leather, with it usually being bare iron/steel on the arm knives and the hilt proper wrapped in leather. At this stage, I hope that you didn't tie up too much in it. Mike

24th March 2005, 05:33 PM	#8
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Well, I went back and found the post on the leather stitched example I was thinking of. Actually, Conogre had posted a comment on it, so I know there is at least one you've seen! The pics are gone now, but someone else did note that looked like a more modern interpretation of the style. Could be that this one is "newer" than it appears at first glance. Still, an interesting sword. A pair of matching boots would look nice with that scabbard. -d

24th March 2005, 05:35 PM	#9
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	BTW, I would recommend wiping that blade down repeatedly with an oiled cloth. -d

24th March 2005, 05:48 PM	#10
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Sheeesh, Derek.....I'd rather have the lizard that the leather came from! grin The rust on the blade seems rather deep in some areas and almost non-existant in others, with the inlaying seeming to be uncommonly clear even in heavily rusted areas. As to what I've seen or not seen, nowdays I'd have to take your word on it....I forgot how old I was for two years, and no comments about sharpness either!!grin Mike

24th March 2005, 05:54 PM	#11
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Man, I had a friend that kept monitors years ago (name was also Derek, coincidentally) and they are mean as hell. One of them actually shattered the glass on a tank just eating a meal!! (meal=very unfortunate rat)

24th March 2005, 06:03 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My son just got himself a baby Chinese Bearded Dragon. They are supposed to be very friendly even at full length (~ a foot) but you should only hear the crunch of crickets in it's mouth and shudder... Adults eat live mice.... Do you think it will make a good cutting test target?

24th March 2005, 06:13 PM	#13
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	If you want to have fun, sit and very slowly wave one hand at the little dragon........there's a good chance it will wave back at you. Bearded dragons are omnivores that consume both insects, fruit and vegetables, with the occasional smaller lizard, and when they say "mice" they mean newborn pinkies too young to have hair. An adult mouse is capable of severely injuring even a full grown bearded dragon (there are 5 species)of the larger types as they aren't particularly aggressive, except to other male bearded dragons....the term bearded, by the way, comes from an expandable throat covered in sharp spines and which turns black in courting males. They can be quick enough that blade damage could be incurred from striking where the lizard WAS, or through it if hit. I myself like to test blades on people who test them on lizards!grin I admit to being predjudiced, as I've never had a lizard lie to me or try to do harm, unlike many "intelligent"animals. Mike

24th March 2005, 07:43 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Mike, You sound suspiciously like my son. Was he in secret contact with you to assuage his Dad's fears? Lizards, snakes and the rest of cold-blooded creatures terrify me; they are just pitbulls with pea-sized brains and no social skills. Remember the movies "Alligator!", "Anaconda" and "Jurassic Park"? There are these Sudanese Kaskaras with the scabbards made of the entire croc: awful sight..... Will never buy one.

25th March 2005, 07:08 AM	#16
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Derek, can you elaborate on what you find unkaskaroid about the guard? Is it the roundness of the quillons? The finials? I'm not disagreeing; I'd like to be better able to regionalize/ethnically ID these type guards. Conogre, I'm pretty sure that's not inlay on the blade, but etching with a lowered "ground" and raised letters. It appears to have rusted and pitted at some time, been polished (with a flat stone or sandpaper, etc?) across the tops of the raised letters, leaving the ground pitted, then rusted a bit again. I wasn't thinking of the Tebu daggers, actually; there is another type, and I'm not sure if it's an arm dagger or not, though it certainly resembles one; it has a pommel this exact shape, integral to the usually wooden handle, and a similar shape at the tip of the usually nonleathered wooden sheath. I've seen two sold on ebay lately, at least one as Oceanic/Pacific, but I'm pretty sure they're African. I don't know if I still have one on my "watching" page, but I'll check later.

25th March 2005, 09:16 AM	#17
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	As an admitted animal fan, Ariel and BSMStar, even terms like "cold blooded" seem to fit people better than reptiles...you have to keep in mind that I spent more than a few years dealing with what people do to each other on a surprisingly regular basis.grin As to the movies, alas, here too we have a case where people's fears are played upon specifiacally to instill fear and horror and often to usually have little to do with what the animals REALLY do, which is usually actually beneficial in the real world (BUT doesn't sell movie tickets! grin) Tell your son to feel free to e-mail me for assistance should he ever need it, or even just moral support. Let's just say my youth was somewhat troubled as my appreciation and love of animals was NOT a shared family trait or interest, and that even peaceful species seemed to insist on attacking my father just to exacerbate the situation....ever see a killer pigeon? BIG grin With that said, I'll apologize and quit hijacking the thread...sorry, sorry, sorry. As to the guard on this piece, bronze isn't common, although not unheard of, and likewise sculpted or shaped quillons are unusual, with the vast majority of kaskaras having them plain and straight, although fairly commonlly octagonal or sextagonal in profile. Although probably subjective, it just doesn't "feel" right to me. Mike