End of sword collecting in the UK

kronckew · 7th April 2008, 11:16 AM

OK, here it is the day after doomsday1 with doomsday2 in October.

has anyone seen the official law yet? all i can find is the 'proposed' law, and the joke 'consultation'.

i'm assuming that in spite of that, all vendors are assuming the worst and refusing to sell anything (like ebay) till it gets clarified and a bit clearer than the current mud...

i see the home office says

1. 'don't ask us, we just make the law, we don't interpret it - ask your solicitor'.
2. the solicitors say, don't know, we haven't seen the final law yet, we'll have to ask the home office.
3. goto 1

i still do not see why they wasted all that time on a new law that they themselves admit was covered by earlier legislation. i know they have better things to do, i just wish they knew they did.

Mark · 7th April 2008, 08:30 PM

The "sport" exception is interesting. It presumably is aimed at rapier & sabre fencing, but it should cover just about any martial art with a weapons for, no? Iaito, bando, escrima, selat, etc., etc. What does paragraph 1(r) describe?

Also, I wonder how much "activity" is required in order to be considered "sporting activity?" Maybe if you put on warm-ups and take your swords out back or down into the cellar and swing it a few times you are OK. Specify in a sale that it is for use in "sporting activity." Vague language is a two-way street, fortunately.

spiral · 7th April 2008, 10:44 PM

Mark , Sport covers most publicliy insured martial arts venues & teaching groups I would say, But vagnes of law which might be usefull in USA, means in England, you can be arrested for nearly any curved sword & a judge will decide & direct a jury in the manner he see fit.

Thats why today carrying a Leatherman in England gets one arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. {because a judge directed it so as a locking blade equaeled a fixed blade & was therfore illegal.} {Sadley 95% of police enforce the law in that manner as well.}

I have a 50 year old, one inch long blade mechanikal locking knife {by an unusual patented design.} that fits on a key ring & that i use to open parcels. It is illegal to carry outside my front door in the UK.

Spiral

spiral · 8th April 2008, 10:44 AM

Heres some more info on the new law from the UK knife collectors & traders association.

spiral

linky

wolviex · 8th April 2008, 02:12 PM

Buhahaha - this is England. If you're asking what will be banned next, here is the answer:

link

And by the way. According to the explanation, provided by the link above, all swords over 100 years old (so labeled as antique) are legal, aren't they? The other thing is to prove their age..., but it doesn't mean end of collecting then.

regards!

Mark · 8th April 2008, 03:31 PM

They do the same thing in the US, depending on which way the political wind blows and whose courtroom you are in. Interpret broadly or narrowly, depending on what social engineering result you are after. We may have more lee-way for attorney argument to swing things one way or the other, dispite what the judge wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Mark , Sport covers most publicliy insured martial arts venues & teaching groups I would say, But vagnes of law which might be usefull in USA, means in England, you can be arrested for nearly any curved sword & a judge will decide & direct a jury in the manner he see fit.

Thats why today carrying a Leatherman in England gets one arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. {because a judge directed it so as a locking blade equaeled a fixed blade & was therfore illegal.} {Sadley 95% of police enforce the law in that manner as well.}

I have a 50 year old, one inch long blade mechanikal locking knife {by an unusual patented design.} that fits on a key ring & that i use to open parcels. It is illegal to carry outside my front door in the UK.

Spiral

Lew · 8th April 2008, 04:03 PM

Soon the moron lawmakers will ban cricket bats, broom handles,hammers,pointy sticks and what ever else that can be used to do bodily harm

You will always have a problem with gangs and hot headed young people who decide to settle their differences through violence. Making collectors of historical arms into criminals will not stop the trouble makers they will always find a way to the crime. I feel the law makers in the UK are slowly slipping down a dangerous slope here. You see how effectively the switch blade ban of the 1950s here in the USA worked gang members no longer use them they have graduated to 9mm pistols and assaut rifles

Lew

kronckew · 9th April 2008, 01:13 PM

guns are of course illegal for the common man over here, with few exceptions; two thugs break into your home for the second time in as many weeks & you shoot one of them, you get to go away for a few years, even tho they had baseball bats they intended to use on you. catch a burglar about to enter your childs room & grab a steak knife out of the sink as you both go thru the kitchen as he tries to get away by hitting & kicking you & you stab him, it's assault with a deadly weapon and possession of an offensive weapon for you. the criminal in these can also sue you for damages sustained during the commission of your illegal assault on them. (the first case, after the farmer got out of jail, his 'victim' who had been shot in the leg sued him for loss of earnings in his career as a burglar, and may have won except he was filmed running across a road to get to court - not quite as disabled as his cane & poorly leg performance in court was supposed to show - that was too much even for the liberal press here & he dropped the case after being laughed at by all)

oh, and since the ban on firearms, they cannot understand why the use of them in crimes continues to rise sharply.

josh stout · 9th April 2008, 05:46 PM

I think the American oversupply of guns, particularly in the hands of teenage boys is nutty, but I can see that the nuttiness can go the other way. Is there no way to win a fight legally in England?

Anyway, I was glad to see that anything over 100 years is exempt. There are so many things that are "early 20th/late 19th C." that I am sure there will be a sudden switch to things being listed simply a late 19th c.

What happens over time? In 2050 will all the WWII stuff be legal? Is the WWI stuff about to become legal?

Is a pedeng larus a straight or curved sword? what about a kris with lots of curves?

So an antique with a new handle is still an antique, how far does that go? What if only the handle is old? What if it is only a one nail?

Laws in general have an inherent problem with absurdity given they are absolute rules in a relativistic universe, but this one seems more absurd than most.
josh

8th April 2008, 02:12 PM	#5
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	And it will be worse.... Buhahaha - this is England. If you're asking what will be banned next, here is the answer: link And by the way. According to the explanation, provided by the link above, all swords over 100 years old (so labeled as antique) are legal, aren't they? The other thing is to prove their age..., but it doesn't mean end of collecting then. regards!

9th April 2008, 01:13 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	guns are of course illegal for the common man over here, with few exceptions; two thugs break into your home for the second time in as many weeks & you shoot one of them, you get to go away for a few years, even tho they had baseball bats they intended to use on you. catch a burglar about to enter your childs room & grab a steak knife out of the sink as you both go thru the kitchen as he tries to get away by hitting & kicking you & you stab him, it's assault with a deadly weapon and possession of an offensive weapon for you. the criminal in these can also sue you for damages sustained during the commission of your illegal assault on them. (the first case, after the farmer got out of jail, his 'victim' who had been shot in the leg sued him for loss of earnings in his career as a burglar, and may have won except he was filmed running across a road to get to court - not quite as disabled as his cane & poorly leg performance in court was supposed to show - that was too much even for the liberal press here & he dropped the case after being laughed at by all) oh, and since the ban on firearms, they cannot understand why the use of them in crimes continues to rise sharply. Last edited by kronckew; 9th April 2008 at 02:00 PM.

7th April 2008, 11:16 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	OK, here it is the day after doomsday1 with doomsday2 in October. has anyone seen the official law yet? all i can find is the 'proposed' law, and the joke 'consultation'. i'm assuming that in spite of that, all vendors are assuming the worst and refusing to sell anything (like ebay) till it gets clarified and a bit clearer than the current mud... i see the home office says 1. 'don't ask us, we just make the law, we don't interpret it - ask your solicitor'. 2. the solicitors say, don't know, we haven't seen the final law yet, we'll have to ask the home office. 3. goto 1 i still do not see why they wasted all that time on a new law that they themselves admit was covered by earlier legislation. i know they have better things to do, i just wish they knew they did.

7th April 2008, 08:30 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	The "sport" exception is interesting. It presumably is aimed at rapier & sabre fencing, but it should cover just about any martial art with a weapons for, no? Iaito, bando, escrima, selat, etc., etc. What does paragraph 1(r) describe? Also, I wonder how much "activity" is required in order to be considered "sporting activity?" Maybe if you put on warm-ups and take your swords out back or down into the cellar and swing it a few times you are OK. Specify in a sale that it is for use in "sporting activity." Vague language is a two-way street, fortunately.

7th April 2008, 10:44 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Mark , Sport covers most publicliy insured martial arts venues & teaching groups I would say, But vagnes of law which might be usefull in USA, means in England, you can be arrested for nearly any curved sword & a judge will decide & direct a jury in the manner he see fit. Thats why today carrying a Leatherman in England gets one arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. {because a judge directed it so as a locking blade equaeled a fixed blade & was therfore illegal.} {Sadley 95% of police enforce the law in that manner as well.} I have a 50 year old, one inch long blade mechanikal locking knife {by an unusual patented design.} that fits on a key ring & that i use to open parcels. It is illegal to carry outside my front door in the UK. Spiral

8th April 2008, 10:44 AM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Heres some more info on the new law from the UK knife collectors & traders association. spiral linky

8th April 2008, 04:03 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Soon the moron lawmakers will ban cricket bats, broom handles,hammers,pointy sticks and what ever else that can be used to do bodily harm You will always have a problem with gangs and hot headed young people who decide to settle their differences through violence. Making collectors of historical arms into criminals will not stop the trouble makers they will always find a way to the crime. I feel the law makers in the UK are slowly slipping down a dangerous slope here. You see how effectively the switch blade ban of the 1950s here in the USA worked gang members no longer use them they have graduated to 9mm pistols and assaut rifles Lew

9th April 2008, 05:46 PM	#9
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I think the American oversupply of guns, particularly in the hands of teenage boys is nutty, but I can see that the nuttiness can go the other way. Is there no way to win a fight legally in England? Anyway, I was glad to see that anything over 100 years is exempt. There are so many things that are "early 20th/late 19th C." that I am sure there will be a sudden switch to things being listed simply a late 19th c. What happens over time? In 2050 will all the WWII stuff be legal? Is the WWI stuff about to become legal? Is a pedeng larus a straight or curved sword? what about a kris with lots of curves? So an antique with a new handle is still an antique, how far does that go? What if only the handle is old? What if it is only a one nail? Laws in general have an inherent problem with absurdity given they are absolute rules in a relativistic universe, but this one seems more absurd than most. josh