FYI Brief history of crucible damascus steel

Ian · 23rd March 2005, 05:11 PM

This is most informative. It will take a little while to digest. Much appreciated.

Ian.

Gt Obach · 23rd March 2005, 10:34 PM

wow... thank you Ann
this has made my day
the different forms of crucibles are fascinating..
I thought the different shapes of the ingot/button was for different purposes.... such as egg shaped for swords... etc...
- but I am corrected...thank you once again

Greg

do the crucibles with rice husks have a lower failure rate. ?

Andrew · 23rd March 2005, 11:54 PM

Another great thread! Thank you, Ann.

Ann Feuerbach · 24th March 2005, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

do the crucibles with rice husks have a lower failure rate. ?

Good question. Unfortunatly the documentation/publication of the Indian sites is brief. If I recall correctly, the ethnographic references state a fair number of failures. However, the process obviously worked enough times to make it viable.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th March 2005, 04:07 PM

Thank you Ann, for your two posts. On a forum where oriental arms are discussed, posts like these are very important.
Also thank you to Andrew, for making them a sticky.

Jens

Rivkin · 24th March 2005, 05:53 PM

Thank you very much for your posts !

Sorry, but afaik:

1. In chechen (or more general in vainach) steel is "bulat", for example Haz-Bulat (beautiful steel), Bet-Bulat-Ka etc. It's assumed that the word was introduced by turkish tribes, either khazars or mongols.

2. I always thought that it's also Bulat for "forest" mongol tribes, like Bashkir and so on, and russian/ukrainian bulat is simply a copy of this.

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd April 2005, 03:37 PM

Ann, do you have pictures of the different types of ingots, with measurers and weight?
If you have please show them, as I think not many have seen the different ingots earlier described.

Jens

Ann Feuerbach · 2nd April 2005, 04:38 PM

Unfortunatly Jens I do not and at the present time, can not scan either.

There are very few published pictures of ingots (around 2), mostly descriptions, Craddock, 1998 illustates one from Gatihosahalli, Wayman and Juleff, 1999 illustate one from Sri Lanka. That is it from archaeological contexts. There are some modern ones around, but using replicated ones as models for ancient ones can be misleading.
Ethnographic references say cone shaped, puck or elongated. The only measurment is 2.3-3 cm in diameter for sone from Mel-Siruvalur. Lowe reports ingots from Hyderabad are cake like in shape and between 50-110 grams, whereas Voysey says 680-1260 grams.
We have two ingots from Merv, one egg shaped and one potato shaped. this is significant because the historican Al-Beruni said they are egg shaped.

23rd March 2005, 05:11 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	Thank you, Ann This is most informative. It will take a little while to digest. Much appreciated. Ian.

23rd March 2005, 10:34 PM	#2
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	wow... thank you Ann this has made my day the different forms of crucibles are fascinating.. I thought the different shapes of the ingot/button was for different purposes.... such as egg shaped for swords... etc... - but I am corrected...thank you once again Greg do the crucibles with rice husks have a lower failure rate. ?

23rd March 2005, 11:54 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Another great thread! Thank you, Ann.

24th March 2005, 04:07 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Ann, for your two posts. On a forum where oriental arms are discussed, posts like these are very important. Also thank you to Andrew, for making them a sticky. Jens

24th March 2005, 05:53 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you very much for your posts ! Sorry, but afaik: 1. In chechen (or more general in vainach) steel is "bulat", for example Haz-Bulat (beautiful steel), Bet-Bulat-Ka etc. It's assumed that the word was introduced by turkish tribes, either khazars or mongols. 2. I always thought that it's also Bulat for "forest" mongol tribes, like Bashkir and so on, and russian/ukrainian bulat is simply a copy of this. Sincerely yours, K.Rivkin

2nd April 2005, 03:37 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ann, do you have pictures of the different types of ingots, with measurers and weight? If you have please show them, as I think not many have seen the different ingots earlier described. Jens

2nd April 2005, 04:38 PM	#8
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Unfortunatly Jens I do not and at the present time, can not scan either. There are very few published pictures of ingots (around 2), mostly descriptions, Craddock, 1998 illustates one from Gatihosahalli, Wayman and Juleff, 1999 illustate one from Sri Lanka. That is it from archaeological contexts. There are some modern ones around, but using replicated ones as models for ancient ones can be misleading. Ethnographic references say cone shaped, puck or elongated. The only measurment is 2.3-3 cm in diameter for sone from Mel-Siruvalur. Lowe reports ingots from Hyderabad are cake like in shape and between 50-110 grams, whereas Voysey says 680-1260 grams. We have two ingots from Merv, one egg shaped and one potato shaped. this is significant because the historican Al-Beruni said they are egg shaped.