Video, poison keris blade

A. G. Maisey · 16th March 2008, 11:20 PM

I've got something about blade poisoning running around in the back of my memory. I cannot recall it in detail, I know I've got it somewhere in my references, but its years and years since I read it.

What I think is so is this:- concoctions made of various animal and vegetable ingredients were used as a blade soak, probably the principal ingredient was the sap of the upas tree; the sap of the upas tree is used as an arrow poison throughout maritime SE Asia, and I believe in the Malay Peninsula; upas sap acts on the heart and causes heart failure.

I will not vouch for any of this, as it is probably more than 20 years since I read it, and it is a subject that has only very slight interest for me, however, it might be enough to get somebody started on finding out exactly what the real situation is.

Pusaka · 17th March 2008, 03:55 PM

I remember reading about the upas tree back in my school days, the locals perpetuated the story that the tree was so poisonous that no other living thing, plant or otherwise could live within a few meters radius of the tree

I have seen blades poisoned in the Philippines but I am not convinced by the method used. They fry poisonous spiders and worms together and then add acid. The blade is then dipped in this mixture and is considered poisoned. The thing is many venoms are protein based. If you expose the venom to high temperatures surly it will breakdown the protein and render the venom harmless. I think the same with plant toxins. If they are used during the forging of the blade when it is red hot then surly it will destroy the toxin.

If as they say the toxin was added during the forging than perhaps its as simple as quenching the blade in a strong solution of arsenic.

I don’t think it is a common practice and perhaps it was only done during battles but I don’t think it impossible since this has been done in several cultures. I remember reading how in ancient Ireland a battle took place in which sword blades were treated with a plant toxin (probably monkshood) so that even the slightest cut would be fatal.

But yes a blade soaked whilst cool is much more probable, dangerous thing though

Lew · 17th March 2008, 04:28 PM

I have nicked myself once or twice on some keris and I am still here to talk about it

. It makes a good story.

Lew

A. G. Maisey · 17th March 2008, 09:42 PM

There is no doubt that the sap of upas tree is very poisonous. I think that they used to give condemned criminals the job of going to collect it, as an alternative to execution. It was used as an arrow poison. I've just googleised "upas tree" and there's quite a bit there on it, which seems to more or less agree with what I can recall.
There is a poisonous frog in Jawa, but I don't know how poisonous, or if its poison was ever used on keris.
I personally think that it is possible that sometimes, some people may have applied poison to a keris blade before they entered a situation where they knew they would probably use the keris, but I have never heard of this as a general practice.

We can forget the arsenic as a blade poison. Arsenic does not work that way, and the tiny quantity that might be left on any blade would never do any damage anyway.

PenangsangII · 18th March 2008, 06:01 AM

The keris is dipped into poison solution called baceman (snake head pickles mixed with human faeces) just before battle or fight. So, the poison would still be working. In the Peninsula, keris is sometimes hardened by dipping the red hot blade into upas / poison solution. The effect if stabbed by it is still a mystery though......

Bill S · 18th March 2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The keris is dipped into poison solution called baceman (snake head pickles mixed with human faeces) just before battle or fight. So, the poison would still be working.

There are a few possible flaws in this theory. First, pickled snake heads would not be an effective poison. Snake venom would only be "still working" if the venom were extracted from the venom glands and put on the blade and used while still fresh. Pickling the heads does not do this. The human feces would definitely cause infection - but such infection would only set in days after a person was stabbed in battle and would not have any effect on the battlefield. And I've got doubts as to how many people keep jars of pickled snake heads and feces around the house.

This scenario also assumes that the keris was a battlefield weapon. I think there is plenty of support for its use as a weapon of personal defense/offense. But as a battlefield weapon it would fall short, and I'm not aware of its use in this context.

Pusaka · 18th March 2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The keris is dipped into poison solution called baceman (snake head pickles mixed with human faeces) just before battle or fight. So, the poison would still be working. In the Peninsula, keris is sometimes hardened by dipping the red hot blade into upas / poison solution. The effect if stabbed by it is still a mystery though......

The only part of that formula which would work is the upas toxin, however if you applied the toxin to a redhot blade then I'm not so sure the toxin would survive that.
As for the snake venom, it usually has to be stored in a fridge to survive so pickled snakes head would not do much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill S

This scenario also assumes that the keris was a battlefield weapon. I think there is plenty of support for its use as a weapon of personal defense/offense. But as a battlefield weapon it would fall short, and I'm not aware of its use in this context.

True, the keris is actually not a very good weapon, a sword would be far better. I think the Kris is an improvement on the Keris as a weapon.

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2008, 11:05 PM

For many, many years we have heard it repeated that the keris is not a particularly effective weapon.

I would suggest that used in the way and situation in which it is intended to be used, it is in fact an extremely effective weapon.

Comparison of a keris to a sword is pointless, as both have a different purpose.

A guitar string is a very effective weapon.

So is an AK47.

But both have different methods of application, and are used for different purposes.

16th March 2008, 11:20 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I've got something about blade poisoning running around in the back of my memory. I cannot recall it in detail, I know I've got it somewhere in my references, but its years and years since I read it. What I think is so is this:- concoctions made of various animal and vegetable ingredients were used as a blade soak, probably the principal ingredient was the sap of the upas tree; the sap of the upas tree is used as an arrow poison throughout maritime SE Asia, and I believe in the Malay Peninsula; upas sap acts on the heart and causes heart failure. I will not vouch for any of this, as it is probably more than 20 years since I read it, and it is a subject that has only very slight interest for me, however, it might be enough to get somebody started on finding out exactly what the real situation is.

17th March 2008, 03:55 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I remember reading about the upas tree back in my school days, the locals perpetuated the story that the tree was so poisonous that no other living thing, plant or otherwise could live within a few meters radius of the tree I have seen blades poisoned in the Philippines but I am not convinced by the method used. They fry poisonous spiders and worms together and then add acid. The blade is then dipped in this mixture and is considered poisoned. The thing is many venoms are protein based. If you expose the venom to high temperatures surly it will breakdown the protein and render the venom harmless. I think the same with plant toxins. If they are used during the forging of the blade when it is red hot then surly it will destroy the toxin. If as they say the toxin was added during the forging than perhaps its as simple as quenching the blade in a strong solution of arsenic. I don’t think it is a common practice and perhaps it was only done during battles but I don’t think it impossible since this has been done in several cultures. I remember reading how in ancient Ireland a battle took place in which sword blades were treated with a plant toxin (probably monkshood) so that even the slightest cut would be fatal. But yes a blade soaked whilst cool is much more probable, dangerous thing though

17th March 2008, 04:28 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I have nicked myself once or twice on some keris and I am still here to talk about it . It makes a good story. Lew

17th March 2008, 09:42 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	There is no doubt that the sap of upas tree is very poisonous. I think that they used to give condemned criminals the job of going to collect it, as an alternative to execution. It was used as an arrow poison. I've just googleised "upas tree" and there's quite a bit there on it, which seems to more or less agree with what I can recall. There is a poisonous frog in Jawa, but I don't know how poisonous, or if its poison was ever used on keris. I personally think that it is possible that sometimes, some people may have applied poison to a keris blade before they entered a situation where they knew they would probably use the keris, but I have never heard of this as a general practice. We can forget the arsenic as a blade poison. Arsenic does not work that way, and the tiny quantity that might be left on any blade would never do any damage anyway.

18th March 2008, 06:01 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	The keris is dipped into poison solution called baceman (snake head pickles mixed with human faeces) just before battle or fight. So, the poison would still be working. In the Peninsula, keris is sometimes hardened by dipping the red hot blade into upas / poison solution. The effect if stabbed by it is still a mystery though......

18th March 2008, 11:05 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	For many, many years we have heard it repeated that the keris is not a particularly effective weapon. I would suggest that used in the way and situation in which it is intended to be used, it is in fact an extremely effective weapon. Comparison of a keris to a sword is pointless, as both have a different purpose. A guitar string is a very effective weapon. So is an AK47. But both have different methods of application, and are used for different purposes.