second look at a Chinese chopper

josh stout · 10th March 2008, 06:22 PM

I was asked as a digression from another thread to elaborate on this knife.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...LoGrH1o-To.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...aLLb6wYDxQ.jpg

I think I have posted it before, but I have much more information now. I discussed this type of knife with Scott Rodell, Pillip Tom, and Peter Decker, and I think I have a better idea what it is.

This chopper is from a very long line of single-handed Chinese choppers found in Song and Ming illustrations. They were developed from agricultural implements, but are definitely weapons. Late Qing ones might be called guitoedao (demon head knife), mid Qing ones might be called pudao, and Ming ones might be called yanchidao (goose wing knife), yantoudao, or fengshidao (pheonix wing knife). In one Ming text a similar knife is referred to as a shoudao (hand knife), but perhaps simply to differentiate it from the similar looking pole arms. Most examples have much more simple clipped tips, but this is not the only such example I have seen with the wavy upturned tip.

This one may be late Ming/early Qing, or it could be 19th c., it is very difficult to tell. They appear more often in Ming illustrations than Qing ones.

Josh

katana · 12th March 2008, 09:30 PM

Hi Josh,
do you know whether there is a 'evolutionary' link between this type of chopper and the Kora ?

Regards David

.

Emanuel · 13th March 2008, 12:51 AM

Hello,

I really do not see the similarity between the two. The kora has a concave edge while this dao has a convex edge. Those protrusions are aesthetic coincidences IMO

. In one case they're at the front, in the other they're at the back.

All the best,
Emanuel

Andrew · 13th March 2008, 12:52 AM

I would tend to doubt any connection other than incidental--kora are sharpened on the concave edge.

katana · 13th March 2008, 01:45 AM

I should have been more specific

(it been a looooong tiring day

) I knew the edges were sharpened concave edge ( kora) etc.

I meant a reference to the end shape with the three 'waves' ......symbolic? cultural? religious?.

Regards David

Gavin Nugent · 13th March 2008, 01:10 PM

My first thoughts were Kora blade too. I then did note the oval guard which is different to the normal round guard often seen on Chinese sabres and the usual sabre hilt style.

I do wonder about about the ethnic cross overs though, they all shared the same borders and who knows what trade routes there were in times gone by and if a Kora style blade found it's way to being married with a Chinese sabre.

Josh I would be very much interested in what images you have seen and if they are digital, could you share them here please for further research.

Thanks

Gav

josh stout · 17th March 2008, 03:34 AM

"Iron and steel swords of China" (ISSC) is an excellent book containing many good examples of various antiques including the clipped tip chopper. There are several period manuals that list such weapons, and I think ISSC covers some of the ones I was thinking of.

For immediate gratification, this website has many useful pictures. (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/catalog.html)

Go to the Song dynasty stuff to see a chopper that looks just like my Yi one.
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation366.jpg)

I suspect that ergonomics and expediency have developed a similar chopping shape used as a farm implement and converted into a chopper in many regions. I have no idea what the origin of the wavy tip is, but it is also not uncommon in clipped tip pole arms.
Josh

Gavin Nugent · 17th March 2008, 04:02 AM

Thanks Josh.

I am familiar with the distinct clipped tip found on "choppers" past and present but this type of wavy curved tip is somewhat of an unknown for me on Chinese edged weapons.
As yet I have not seen, other than yours, a tip of this type except on Koras.

I do hope with a little tenacity, a collective reasearch effort can pin point this style more so. What can a detailed examination of the hilt, guard and peened tang reveal? Is there any evinence suggesting it being rehilted at any stage?

regards

Gavin

josh stout · 17th March 2008, 05:42 PM

I have only seen two other examples. One was from the same seller mine came from and was possibly older with a thinner blade. The other I saw on SFI a few years ago where the majority opinion wrongly concluded it was a modified pole arm. In ISSC there is a Ming statue pictured holding a similar looking wavy tipped chopper, and in the Qianlong era HuangChiao LiQi DuShih there is another wavy tipped one, also quoted in ISSC. That is the one associated with the term "podao". (Not to be confused with "podao/pudao" a type of dadao with an extra long handle.)

The chopper is wrapped up and put away with the majority of my collection to keep it from my kids, so I haven't looked at it in a bit. I do not remember anything unusual about the guard or handle attachment. Nor did I see any reason to think it had been rehilted.

Nice collection BTW.
Josh

10th March 2008, 06:22 PM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	second look at a Chinese chopper I was asked as a digression from another thread to elaborate on this knife. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...LoGrH1o-To.jpg http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...aLLb6wYDxQ.jpg I think I have posted it before, but I have much more information now. I discussed this type of knife with Scott Rodell, Pillip Tom, and Peter Decker, and I think I have a better idea what it is. This chopper is from a very long line of single-handed Chinese choppers found in Song and Ming illustrations. They were developed from agricultural implements, but are definitely weapons. Late Qing ones might be called guitoedao (demon head knife), mid Qing ones might be called pudao, and Ming ones might be called yanchidao (goose wing knife), yantoudao, or fengshidao (pheonix wing knife). In one Ming text a similar knife is referred to as a shoudao (hand knife), but perhaps simply to differentiate it from the similar looking pole arms. Most examples have much more simple clipped tips, but this is not the only such example I have seen with the wavy upturned tip. This one may be late Ming/early Qing, or it could be 19th c., it is very difficult to tell. They appear more often in Ming illustrations than Qing ones. Josh

12th March 2008, 09:30 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Josh, do you know whether there is a 'evolutionary' link between this type of chopper and the Kora ? Regards David . Attached Images

13th March 2008, 01:10 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hhmmm?? My first thoughts were Kora blade too. I then did note the oval guard which is different to the normal round guard often seen on Chinese sabres and the usual sabre hilt style. I do wonder about about the ethnic cross overs though, they all shared the same borders and who knows what trade routes there were in times gone by and if a Kora style blade found it's way to being married with a Chinese sabre. Josh I would be very much interested in what images you have seen and if they are digital, could you share them here please for further research. Thanks Gav

17th March 2008, 04:02 AM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Josh Thanks Josh. I am familiar with the distinct clipped tip found on "choppers" past and present but this type of wavy curved tip is somewhat of an unknown for me on Chinese edged weapons. As yet I have not seen, other than yours, a tip of this type except on Koras. I do hope with a little tenacity, a collective reasearch effort can pin point this style more so. What can a detailed examination of the hilt, guard and peened tang reveal? Is there any evinence suggesting it being rehilted at any stage? regards Gavin Attached Images

13th March 2008, 12:51 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, I really do not see the similarity between the two. The kora has a concave edge while this dao has a convex edge. Those protrusions are aesthetic coincidences IMO . In one case they're at the front, in the other they're at the back. All the best, Emanuel

13th March 2008, 12:52 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I would tend to doubt any connection other than incidental--kora are sharpened on the concave edge.

13th March 2008, 01:45 AM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I should have been more specific (it been a looooong tiring day ) I knew the edges were sharpened concave edge ( kora) etc. I meant a reference to the end shape with the three 'waves' ......symbolic? cultural? religious?. Regards David

17th March 2008, 03:34 AM	#7
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	"Iron and steel swords of China" (ISSC) is an excellent book containing many good examples of various antiques including the clipped tip chopper. There are several period manuals that list such weapons, and I think ISSC covers some of the ones I was thinking of. For immediate gratification, this website has many useful pictures. (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/catalog.html) Go to the Song dynasty stuff to see a chopper that looks just like my Yi one. (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation366.jpg) I suspect that ergonomics and expediency have developed a similar chopping shape used as a farm implement and converted into a chopper in many regions. I have no idea what the origin of the wavy tip is, but it is also not uncommon in clipped tip pole arms. Josh

17th March 2008, 05:42 PM	#9
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I have only seen two other examples. One was from the same seller mine came from and was possibly older with a thinner blade. The other I saw on SFI a few years ago where the majority opinion wrongly concluded it was a modified pole arm. In ISSC there is a Ming statue pictured holding a similar looking wavy tipped chopper, and in the Qianlong era HuangChiao LiQi DuShih there is another wavy tipped one, also quoted in ISSC. That is the one associated with the term "podao". (Not to be confused with "podao/pudao" a type of dadao with an extra long handle.) The chopper is wrapped up and put away with the majority of my collection to keep it from my kids, so I haven't looked at it in a bit. I do not remember anything unusual about the guard or handle attachment. Nor did I see any reason to think it had been rehilted. Nice collection BTW. Josh