Is this a Tanto?

[Andy Stevens]

Hello all,
I got this today from an collectors market, I only actually wanted the Katar (see thread " info on Katar") but the dealer offered me a deal that I couldn't refuse!

I have very little knowledge on Japanese weapons, mainly because they are always beyond my budget. I didn't pay big money for the pair, so any painful comments will be taken without too many tears.
The dagger is very sharp, all the handle binding is firm. The blade is 23cm long, the handle 14 cm.

Is this the real thing? Or have I purchased a nice paint stiring gadget!

Photo's are a bit naff as the batteries lost the will to live.

[fernando]

Hy Andy
The experts will tell you more, but in principle this is the real thing.
The only Japanese piece i have has the same type of handle, a pattern known to be from the so called Tatsuma rebellion ( 1877 ).
Fernando.

[Andy Stevens]

Hi Fernando,
Thanks for the info, the dagger is very interesting, and has prompted me to look through my one and only book on the subject. Are these weapons common? Were they mass produced at all? Thanks Andy

[spiral]

Unfortuanatly the fact that the blade sticks out of the bottom of the habiki means at best its a composite.

The fact that the blade under the Habaki is also sharp means at best it probably apiece from a broken blade.[the tip if your lucky.}

The wrap looks like it was done by a total amauter.

Such features are normaly enough to set alarm bells going, about authenticity.

Spiral

[katana]

Andy,
I've played around with contrast/brightness on your first picture to get a better image. Perhaps this will help.
I am no expert but have to agree with Spiral .... looks to be a 'bitsa', but is it made to deceive or honestly put together ? I have no idea.


Regards David

.

[fernando]

Don't despair Andy, specially if you didn't pay much for it .
You will end up learning something out of this; the world of Japanese swords is a vast universe, including superb examples that sell for many thousands of dollars, but that is not necessarily the issue here.
I notice that the peg ( mekugi ) that holds the handle to the tang hole is missing; check if there is a real tang with such hole ( not the continuation of an adapted broken blade ) and if it has the signature ( mark ) of the maker.
The handle is real ... a modest one, with the ray skin wraped by canvas strips and iron washers in between, instead of the traditional ornaments (menuki); such is a typical economic version, made in a hurry to equip the Tatsuma rebels, but still a legitimate one (see my example picture attached).
I also bought this in a junk condition, but the money i paid for it versus the opportunity to learn about this area, was well worth it.
If you are interested in developing your knowledge in these things, you may start by consulting Richard Stein's comprehensive web site, with a mirror in this Forum resource site
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
Fernando

[katana]

Originally Posted by fernando

Don't despair Andy, specially if you didn't pay much for it .
You will end up learning something out of this; the world of Japanese swords is a vast universe, including superb examples that sell for many thousands of dollars, but that is not necessarily the issue here.
I notice that the peg ( mekugi ) that holds the handle to the tang hole is missing; check if there is a real tang with such hole ( not the continuation of an adapted broken blade ) and if it has the signature ( mark ) of the maker.
The handle is real ... a modest one, with the ray skin wraped by canvas strips and iron washers in between, instead of the traditional ornaments (menuki); such is a typical economic version, made in a hurry to equip the Tatsuma rebels, but still a legitimate one (see my example picture attached).
I also bought this in a junk condition, but the money i paid for it versus the opportunity to learn about this area, was well worth it.
If you are interested in developing your knowledge in these things, you may start by consulting Richard Stein's comprehensive web site, with a mirror in this Forum resource site
Fernando

Well said Fernando,
my lack of knowledge does not allow me to comment with 'authority' on this Tanto but any weapon made for use, whether 'made to order' or composed of 're-cycled' parts still has legitimate 'status' in my 'book'.
I actually thought it strange that a washer was used as the menuki.....afterall if it was made to deceive the maker would surely use something more desirable ..and not use a humble washer... suggesting (to me) some sort of authenticity....but what do I know Andy, if I was you I would 'hang on to it'.

Not all weapons were high status, craftsman made items but their function was the same to protect your country / tribe / family or to attack another.

Regards David

[Andy Stevens]

Thanks for all the info gents, I must say that Fernandos link to Richard Steins website was a real eye opener!
I've managed to pull the blade form the handle- not easy as the thing is bloody sharp! I hope the pics shed a little more light on this dagger. The peg hole in the handle dosn't line up with the hole in the tang, so I guess this is a composite piece, that said, it took a lot of force to remove the blade, I had to remove a lot of rust- me thinks there is some age here and not a modern made in China job. What ever it be, it feels good in the hand and would I'm sure have performed well in action. I can see no marks on the tang-but then again, I hardly know what I'm looking for

Out of interest, the seller has got the scabbard that came with the dagger when he purchased it. I will get it at easter ( he forgot to bring it to the sale) when we meet again at the next antiques fair. Many thanks for all comments and opinions.

[katana]

Andy,
interesting that it has a 'chamfered' spine .....so what appears to be the edge (in one of the pictures) is in fact the spine ?

I am sure the scabbard will help help provide further clues


David

.

[BerberDagger]

this is a kaiken ...not tanto...

[katana]

Hi BerberDagger,
according to this...
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B...kQ8MZD_Y&hl=en

the difference between a Tanto and Kaiken is how it is worn, if that is the case, the scabbard will probably ID which it is

Could it also be considered to be an 'Aikuchi' another guardless Tanto type knife?

Regards David

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

Andy,
interesting that it has a 'chamfered' spine .....so what appears to be the edge (in one of the pictures) is in fact the spine ?

I am sure the scabbard will help help provide further clues


David

.

No David thats the blade edge, the raised spine is on the other side!

Cleaning rust of Japanse tang destroys any value, but luckily that doesnt look like a japanese made tang anyway.

Spiral

[BerberDagger]

Originally Posted by spiral

No David thats the blade edge, the raised spine is on the other side!

Cleaning rust of Japanse tang destroys any value, but luckily that doesnt look like a japanese made tang anyway.

Spiral

I dont aggree , nakago on japanese sword must be original , with old patina and untouch...if you polish nakago blade less much value...nakago is ok..

this "tanto" is little value becouse blade is much rust, I think that hamon dont esc olso with a good togi...

Andy , have you spend much for this?

[katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

No David thats the blade edge, the raised spine is on the other side!

Cleaning rust of Japanse tang destroys any value, but luckily that doesnt look like a japanese made tang anyway.

Spiral

Hi Jonathon,
thanks for clearing that one up.

I am also wondering whether this composite could have been made up by non Japanese. I thinking perhaps captured/found/broken Japanese weapons in ex-occupied countries/islands,(WW2 ? ) put together by local inhabitants ... just a thought

Regards David

[spiral]

That I realy dont know David, just going on what I can see.

I realy must get a new crystal ball.

Spiral

[fernando]

Originally Posted by spiral

... but luckily that doesnt look like a japanese made tang anyway ...

Spiral

That so ?

[spiral]

Not to me, no, definatly not, ive only seen many old handmade & more recent Gendaito ninhonto though, & although with this one the circular grinder marks might be from the clean up of rust? But somehow I dont think so....

But the bits of forge scale, poor shaping etc. lack of file marks [other than circular grinder,] etc,etc. i find impossible to belive as japanese. But I am always happy to learn.

Rich Stein is a member here who I am certain could tell you {& I] exactly.

Spiral