Jungayyan Ivory Sulu Twistcore kris with gold and silver wire inlay

Norman McCormick · 8th March 2008, 03:35 PM

Hi Bill,
I am interested in inlaying techniques therefore would it be possible to post a close up of the blade where the wire ends and the inlay groove is empty. Many thanks.
Regards,
Norman.

CharlesS · 8th March 2008, 03:42 PM

Now this is gor-geeeeez!

Battara · 9th March 2008, 03:26 AM

Impressive! Is this a former Cato piece?

Norman - if you are comming to Timonium, I will be addressing inlay in my presentation....

DaveS · 9th March 2008, 04:19 AM

Jose: As far as i know, and i could be wrong, i don't think Bob had any twist-cores in his collection............Dave.

Gavin Nugent · 9th March 2008, 06:41 AM

Thanks for the email Bill, I have done image comparisons and I must say that yours is an extraordinary example.
I am curious at to what the rest of the detail of the handle looks like?

regards

Gav

Bill M · 9th March 2008, 01:51 PM

Dave,

I believe that you are right about Cato not having twistcores in his book. Don't think that my piece was in his book. Wish it was!

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks for the email Bill, I have done image comparisons and I must say that yours is an extraordinary example.
I am curious at to what the rest of the detail of the handle looks like?

regards

Gav

Here is more detail.

Really looks like a bird from the top.

VVV · 9th March 2008, 02:01 PM

Nice, nice, nice

The hole looks like it's a tooth, maybe one of the seabased (but I am not good at separating different kind of ivory)?

Michael

Bill M · 10th March 2008, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Bill,
I am interested in inlaying techniques therefore would it be possible to post a close up of the blade where the wire ends and the inlay groove is empty. Many thanks.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman,

I will be happy to do this. I have a microscope and will take some real closeups. I tried with the camera, but was not happy with the results. Will get some images this week.

Norman McCormick · 10th March 2008, 12:52 PM

Hi Bill, am looking forward to your photos, many thanks for your time and effort.
Regards,
Norman.

Bill M · 11th March 2008, 02:56 AM

Hi Norman,

Not being certain of what you want to see, I have posted a few macro and micro images.

First the macro

Moving in closer

Still Closer

Into Micro, please excuse the color shift, I may need a different filter on my light source. Here is a 10x of the place where the two lines join at a point.

Micro of the gold and silver wire.

Micro where the wire has come loose showing the channel. If you want more showing the channel, I can oblige.

Micro of the wire.

Norman McCormick · 11th March 2008, 08:53 PM

Hi Bill,
Many thanks for the photos, I've been experimenting with inlaying copper into steel and what I wanted to see was how the grooves were prepared for inlaying. On European weapons it would appear the groove is undercut using a special tool forming an inverted T so that when the inlay is forced into the space it expands into the T thereby forming an anchor for the metal inlay. From what I can see this is not the case in this blade and internal 'roughness' of the groove is sufficient to grip the inlay if it is laid in with enough force. This is how I have done it and it seems to work very well. Is there any evidence of an adhesive in the groove? I was thinking of possibly a similar substance to that used in India for Tulwar hilts. I also wanted to see how smooth the edges of the grooves were as this is a difficult thing to achieve with hand tools although only really apparent upon close inspection and not terribly noticeable at normal viewing distances. Thanks again for the pictures and would you mind if I copied them into my photo file for future reference?
Regards,
Norman.

katana · 11th March 2008, 10:36 PM

Hi Bill,
the magnified images are really interesting

There seems to be crystaline 'structures' (ringed in photo) in the blade .... any idea what they could be

David

.

Bill M · 12th March 2008, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Bill,
the magnified images are really interesting

There seems to be crystalline 'structures' (ringed in photo) in the blade .... any idea what they could be

David

.

David,

I will look deeper with higher magnification. and try some different angles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Bill,
Many thanks for the photos, I've been experimenting with inlaying copper into steel and what I wanted to see was how the grooves were prepared for inlaying. On European weapons it would appear the groove is undercut using a special tool forming an inverted T so that when the inlay is forced into the space it expands into the T thereby forming an anchor for the metal inlay. From what I can see this is not the case in this blade and internal 'roughness' of the groove is sufficient to grip the inlay if it is laid in with enough force. This is how I have done it and it seems to work very well. Is there any evidence of an adhesive in the groove? I was thinking of possibly a similar substance to that used in India for Tulwar hilts. I also wanted to see how smooth the edges of the grooves were as this is a difficult thing to achieve with hand tools although only really apparent upon close inspection and not terribly noticeable at normal viewing distances. Thanks again for the pictures and would you mind if I copied them into my photo file for future reference?
Regards,
Norman.

Norman, you are perfectly welcome to use the images anyt way you like!

I want to try some more images at different angles and using fiberoptic ringlight as well as the dual goosenecks. I don't think there is an inverted "T." It looks like it is mainly just a groove with the metal pounded in as you suggested.

Bill

9th March 2008, 06:41 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Bill Thanks for the email Bill, I have done image comparisons and I must say that yours is an extraordinary example. I am curious at to what the rest of the detail of the handle looks like? regards Gav

11th March 2008, 10:36 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Bill, the magnified images are really interesting There seems to be crystaline 'structures' (ringed in photo) in the blade .... any idea what they could be David . Attached Images

8th March 2008, 03:35 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,644	Hi Bill, I am interested in inlaying techniques therefore would it be possible to post a close up of the blade where the wire ends and the inlay groove is empty. Many thanks. Regards, Norman.

8th March 2008, 03:42 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Now this is gor-geeeeez!

9th March 2008, 03:26 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	Impressive! Is this a former Cato piece? Norman - if you are comming to Timonium, I will be addressing inlay in my presentation....

9th March 2008, 04:19 AM	#4
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Jose: As far as i know, and i could be wrong, i don't think Bob had any twist-cores in his collection............Dave.

9th March 2008, 02:01 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice, nice, nice The hole looks like it's a tooth, maybe one of the seabased (but I am not good at separating different kind of ivory)? Michael

10th March 2008, 12:52 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,644	Hi Bill, am looking forward to your photos, many thanks for your time and effort. Regards, Norman.

11th March 2008, 02:56 AM	#10
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Hi Norman, Not being certain of what you want to see, I have posted a few macro and micro images. First the macro Moving in closer Still Closer Into Micro, please excuse the color shift, I may need a different filter on my light source. Here is a 10x of the place where the two lines join at a point. Micro of the gold and silver wire. Micro where the wire has come loose showing the channel. If you want more showing the channel, I can oblige. Micro of the wire.

11th March 2008, 08:53 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,644	Hi Bill, Many thanks for the photos, I've been experimenting with inlaying copper into steel and what I wanted to see was how the grooves were prepared for inlaying. On European weapons it would appear the groove is undercut using a special tool forming an inverted T so that when the inlay is forced into the space it expands into the T thereby forming an anchor for the metal inlay. From what I can see this is not the case in this blade and internal 'roughness' of the groove is sufficient to grip the inlay if it is laid in with enough force. This is how I have done it and it seems to work very well. Is there any evidence of an adhesive in the groove? I was thinking of possibly a similar substance to that used in India for Tulwar hilts. I also wanted to see how smooth the edges of the grooves were as this is a difficult thing to achieve with hand tools although only really apparent upon close inspection and not terribly noticeable at normal viewing distances. Thanks again for the pictures and would you mind if I copied them into my photo file for future reference? Regards, Norman.