End of sword collecting in the UK

Gavin Nugent · 5th March 2008, 04:27 AM

I think this will only pertain to weapons brandished in the streets or found in vehicles or similar situations were the weapons law is not adopted convincingly, I cannot foresee the English police kicking down doors of collectors to get to these edged weapons. This law is an Amendment of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, one would have to find the complete law governing the ownership and use of these edged weapons to comment further I believe. Though saying that, I do wonder what knee jerk reaction there would be if a daft person saw a collector walking from a dealers shop front with a sword? Would that be considered a breach?

Hmmmmm

Gav

kronckew · 5th March 2008, 05:59 AM

freebooter,

the act prohibits the sale, trade, importing, loaning or giving away of the covered weapons, so both the the seller and the buyer are committing an offence. you can keep existing items in your home, (or museum) they can never leave tho, no loaning between museums. (or sending to collecters overseas, sorry)

dealers who are afraid they will get arrested due to the vagueness of the law will err on the side of caution and just not sell anything remotely similar. ebay will just ban the sale of anything that might be.

reminds me of the breed specific 'dangerous dogs act' that banned american pit bulls and 'pit bull types' - who defines what a 'pit bull type' is? the police, and the courts, lawyers and politicians, who have no idea or training. a chihuahua is genetically the same species as a pit bull, or a timber wolf. they can interbreed, is a chihuahua a pit bull type? it basicly means that any dog is liable. the 'if it looks like a pit bull, it is one' attitude is a bit vague for me. it's not the inanimate piece of steel, or the badly behaved dog, it's the owner and how he uses, or trains, them.

the police over here had to enter the home of a suspect, there was a dog in the back yard. to gain entry, they shot the dog. turned out to be the wrong house. no apology, no remorse, it was a dangerous dog. it barked at the invaders. distraught owners have no course of action. police said they did it to protect their men.

one of the incidents that lead up to the ban was a man brandishing a cheap stainless steel 'decorator' samurai sword at people from his front steps. the police arrived, and to protect themselves, shot him when he wouldn't put it down. the fact he was legally entitled to have it on his property was not a factor. the police did not apparently have any other means to subdue him, tho why they did not just isolate him & wait till he calmed down & talk to him i do not know. seems they justify it by saying he was on the steps, which were a public walkway so he was fair game.

there will likely be an 'amnesty' where people are allowed to bring in their swords to police stations for destruction. they had one for knives recently, and tv showed piles of them, most were kitchen knives, or those odd spikey fantasy knives, but you could spot the odd antique treasure soon to be a puddle of molten iron. more history down the tubes by unthinking barbarians.

my first father in law was a royal navy officer, lost his leg in battle with german patrol boats in the channel, he had two german short hunting swords he captured after a boarding, they were the typical bronze sculpted hilts with shell guards, blued blades with gold inlayed figures, complete with scabbards and sword knots. beautiful. he'd promised i could have them after he was gone. meanwhile they passed one of the earlier knife banns, had an amnesty & he turned them in, fearful of being a criminal - i was in the states at the time so by the time i found out it was too late. yet another anecdote of history down the melting pot.

the odd bit to me is that japanese swords are effectively and specifically exempt in a law intended to prohibit them, and i do not see any provision for antiques. i have a hand forged & tempered katana made this century which i guess is still legal but only if it was made in japan. it's unmarked, unsigned, does that mean it illegal, i am guilty unless i can prove i am innocent. though it was supposed to be i am innocent inless they prove i am guilty. the early 20th c. dha with the silver inlayed blade is no longer legal, the 19c. one may or may not be.

it is a draft, so maybe some sense will prevail, but with less than a month to go before it gets rammed past any opposition, i doubt it. will it do any good? i doubt it. criminals do not obey the law, only honest citizens (who will now soon be criminals). it'll make a good sound byte on tv, and make the sheeple feel more secure in their beds, even as the crime figures continue to rise. yobbos and gang members who might have carried one will just shift to cricket bats (baseball is not played here, so carrying a baseball bat is already considered to be armed with a dangerous weapon).

as anyone using an edged weapon in public is already illegal, even for defense, i do not see why the law is needed in the first place, i did not see why they needed to ban guns either, the crooks still have them, and still get them, it's the honest sportsman and home owner who again suffer. they cannot accept the facts that where guns are banned crime, inc. gun crime goes up. where guns are allowed and encouraged, crime goes down. the spate of university shootings on campuses where guns are specifically banned, in states where concealed carry is allowed under permit shows that the ban areas are just a target area for those who want to kill with impunity without risk they themselves may be stopped before they are done.

arghh!

fearn · 5th March 2008, 06:16 AM

Hmmmmm.

Actually, I can understand why they focused on curved blades.

There's a little problem with straight blades. They're religious objects to druids and similar pagans in the UK. There was a case a few years ago of a "sword-bearer" getting arrested while carrying a wrapped ritual sword to a ceremony. He stopped at a drug store, was arrested, and eventually got the sword back. Religious freedom is still one reason to carry a blade.

I wonder what will happen if the sikhs protest about losing their sabers in the UK? Or perhaps, what will happen when the druids lose their sickles?

While I don't think that "the Church of the Curved Blade" will have too many converts (I'd join, but who else?), I think there is a legitimate religious freedom case here. Perhaps some collectors might be interested in joining forces with a suitable Sikh or pagan group to get their rights back?

Just a thought,

F

Tim Simmons · 5th March 2008, 08:46 AM

This does at first appear very worrying. However I feel Freebooter is correct that this law is only part of a bigger picture. Law and enforcement are shades of grey not always black and white. There is a date factor to this bill and as mentioned the environment in which this weapons appear may be more crucial to the laws interpretation. Do you really think that the big auction houses in London will stop auctions of fine antique weapons? Are the feudal landlords going to be banned from maintaining and adding to there estate collection? many members of the public spend good money to view thier castle, country house. Do you really think Lord so and so will be banned from buy an antique sword from Sotheby's and the others. In action I imagine it will be akin to the sale of ivory. If you are an idiot or a scum bag caught with a weapon openly displayed in the wrong place then you only have yourself to blame. I hope

ashoka · 5th March 2008, 11:38 AM

Antique swords over 100 years old are exempt. For clarification the chap fielding enquiries is Jonathon Batt tel: 0207 0351807 who should be able to answer any queries.

Andrew · 5th March 2008, 02:27 PM

Thanks for the info, Stefan.

Mark · 5th March 2008, 02:53 PM

Is there another law over there that deals specifically with antiques of any nature? One argument would be that if the sword is an antique under such a law, it should be permissible to own, sell, etc. Laws should not conflict, and generally the earlier law governs absent specific limitation or supercedence by a later law.

I am still always amazed at the idea of going after the means used to commit a crime, rather than the criminal. Shouldn't crowbars be made illegal, as they are often used in breaking and entering? Here in the US, as I imagine in the UK, there are some many laws already on the books that can be used to target criminal behavoir, yet they are so often laxly or inconsistenly applied. It comes down to pure politics, of course. Some MP, or Congressman, grabs a headline and runs with it for the attention it gets them as a crusader against crime.

5th March 2008, 04:27 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	To further my view. I think this will only pertain to weapons brandished in the streets or found in vehicles or similar situations were the weapons law is not adopted convincingly, I cannot foresee the English police kicking down doors of collectors to get to these edged weapons. This law is an Amendment of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, one would have to find the complete law governing the ownership and use of these edged weapons to comment further I believe. Though saying that, I do wonder what knee jerk reaction there would be if a daft person saw a collector walking from a dealers shop front with a sword? Would that be considered a breach? Hmmmmm Gav

5th March 2008, 05:59 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	freebooter, the act prohibits the sale, trade, importing, loaning or giving away of the covered weapons, so both the the seller and the buyer are committing an offence. you can keep existing items in your home, (or museum) they can never leave tho, no loaning between museums. (or sending to collecters overseas, sorry) dealers who are afraid they will get arrested due to the vagueness of the law will err on the side of caution and just not sell anything remotely similar. ebay will just ban the sale of anything that might be. reminds me of the breed specific 'dangerous dogs act' that banned american pit bulls and 'pit bull types' - who defines what a 'pit bull type' is? the police, and the courts, lawyers and politicians, who have no idea or training. a chihuahua is genetically the same species as a pit bull, or a timber wolf. they can interbreed, is a chihuahua a pit bull type? it basicly means that any dog is liable. the 'if it looks like a pit bull, it is one' attitude is a bit vague for me. it's not the inanimate piece of steel, or the badly behaved dog, it's the owner and how he uses, or trains, them. the police over here had to enter the home of a suspect, there was a dog in the back yard. to gain entry, they shot the dog. turned out to be the wrong house. no apology, no remorse, it was a dangerous dog. it barked at the invaders. distraught owners have no course of action. police said they did it to protect their men. one of the incidents that lead up to the ban was a man brandishing a cheap stainless steel 'decorator' samurai sword at people from his front steps. the police arrived, and to protect themselves, shot him when he wouldn't put it down. the fact he was legally entitled to have it on his property was not a factor. the police did not apparently have any other means to subdue him, tho why they did not just isolate him & wait till he calmed down & talk to him i do not know. seems they justify it by saying he was on the steps, which were a public walkway so he was fair game. there will likely be an 'amnesty' where people are allowed to bring in their swords to police stations for destruction. they had one for knives recently, and tv showed piles of them, most were kitchen knives, or those odd spikey fantasy knives, but you could spot the odd antique treasure soon to be a puddle of molten iron. more history down the tubes by unthinking barbarians. my first father in law was a royal navy officer, lost his leg in battle with german patrol boats in the channel, he had two german short hunting swords he captured after a boarding, they were the typical bronze sculpted hilts with shell guards, blued blades with gold inlayed figures, complete with scabbards and sword knots. beautiful. he'd promised i could have them after he was gone. meanwhile they passed one of the earlier knife banns, had an amnesty & he turned them in, fearful of being a criminal - i was in the states at the time so by the time i found out it was too late. yet another anecdote of history down the melting pot. the odd bit to me is that japanese swords are effectively and specifically exempt in a law intended to prohibit them, and i do not see any provision for antiques. i have a hand forged & tempered katana made this century which i guess is still legal but only if it was made in japan. it's unmarked, unsigned, does that mean it illegal, i am guilty unless i can prove i am innocent. though it was supposed to be i am innocent inless they prove i am guilty. the early 20th c. dha with the silver inlayed blade is no longer legal, the 19c. one may or may not be. it is a draft, so maybe some sense will prevail, but with less than a month to go before it gets rammed past any opposition, i doubt it. will it do any good? i doubt it. criminals do not obey the law, only honest citizens (who will now soon be criminals). it'll make a good sound byte on tv, and make the sheeple feel more secure in their beds, even as the crime figures continue to rise. yobbos and gang members who might have carried one will just shift to cricket bats (baseball is not played here, so carrying a baseball bat is already considered to be armed with a dangerous weapon). as anyone using an edged weapon in public is already illegal, even for defense, i do not see why the law is needed in the first place, i did not see why they needed to ban guns either, the crooks still have them, and still get them, it's the honest sportsman and home owner who again suffer. they cannot accept the facts that where guns are banned crime, inc. gun crime goes up. where guns are allowed and encouraged, crime goes down. the spate of university shootings on campuses where guns are specifically banned, in states where concealed carry is allowed under permit shows that the ban areas are just a target area for those who want to kill with impunity without risk they themselves may be stopped before they are done. arghh! Last edited by kronckew; 5th March 2008 at 06:16 AM.

5th March 2008, 06:16 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hmmmmm. Actually, I can understand why they focused on curved blades. There's a little problem with straight blades. They're religious objects to druids and similar pagans in the UK. There was a case a few years ago of a "sword-bearer" getting arrested while carrying a wrapped ritual sword to a ceremony. He stopped at a drug store, was arrested, and eventually got the sword back. Religious freedom is still one reason to carry a blade. I wonder what will happen if the sikhs protest about losing their sabers in the UK? Or perhaps, what will happen when the druids lose their sickles? While I don't think that "the Church of the Curved Blade" will have too many converts (I'd join, but who else?), I think there is a legitimate religious freedom case here. Perhaps some collectors might be interested in joining forces with a suitable Sikh or pagan group to get their rights back? Just a thought, F

5th March 2008, 08:46 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	This does at first appear very worrying. However I feel Freebooter is correct that this law is only part of a bigger picture. Law and enforcement are shades of grey not always black and white. There is a date factor to this bill and as mentioned the environment in which this weapons appear may be more crucial to the laws interpretation. Do you really think that the big auction houses in London will stop auctions of fine antique weapons? Are the feudal landlords going to be banned from maintaining and adding to there estate collection? many members of the public spend good money to view thier castle, country house. Do you really think Lord so and so will be banned from buy an antique sword from Sotheby's and the others. In action I imagine it will be akin to the sale of ivory. If you are an idiot or a scum bag caught with a weapon openly displayed in the wrong place then you only have yourself to blame. I hope

5th March 2008, 11:38 AM	#5
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	Antique swords over 100 years old are exempt. For clarification the chap fielding enquiries is Jonathon Batt tel: 0207 0351807 who should be able to answer any queries.

5th March 2008, 02:27 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thanks for the info, Stefan.

5th March 2008, 02:53 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Is there another law over there that deals specifically with antiques of any nature? One argument would be that if the sword is an antique under such a law, it should be permissible to own, sell, etc. Laws should not conflict, and generally the earlier law governs absent specific limitation or supercedence by a later law. I am still always amazed at the idea of going after the means used to commit a crime, rather than the criminal. Shouldn't crowbars be made illegal, as they are often used in breaking and entering? Here in the US, as I imagine in the UK, there are some many laws already on the books that can be used to target criminal behavoir, yet they are so often laxly or inconsistenly applied. It comes down to pure politics, of course. Some MP, or Congressman, grabs a headline and runs with it for the attention it gets them as a crusader against crime.