Some help, please

Freddy · 12th February 2008, 09:07 PM

Can anyone identify this knife/machete ? I'm asking for a friend. It's not a bayonet and there are no markings to be found on this piece.

Thanks, Freddy

Robert · 12th February 2008, 09:39 PM

Hi Freddy,
If I remember right I once saw one of these listed as being from Argentina but cannot recall where it was that I saw it.

Sorry.

Robert

fernando · 12th February 2008, 09:40 PM

Why you say it's not a bayonet, Freddy ?
Because it doesn't have the "rail" to fit in a rifle?
Don't you think it sure is a military piece and still considered a bayonet ?
Fernando

Bill M · 13th February 2008, 01:05 AM

Sure looks like a bayonet. Perhaps some kind of military sword or knife?

How long is it? Overall? Blade?

Rich · 13th February 2008, 02:13 AM

Could very well be a "dress" bayonet. Many were used strickly for
"dress" or parade wear to be worn at the side and not mounted on
the rifle, hence no rail to fit the gun.

Rich S

fearn · 13th February 2008, 03:02 AM

I've seen similar knives offered in the replica catalogs as Union side arms for the American Civil War. They were supposedly the north's answer to the southern bowie, and were carried by riflemen.

That said, I'm pretty sure this isn't a Civil War piece. However, I'm comfortable that it's not a bayonet.

F

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2008, 04:19 AM

Looks very much to me like sidearms worn by specialist troops in European armies. These heavy bladed weapons were worn by the units that corresponded to engineers in U.S. troops, but were known by terms such as sappers (for the French term for an excavated trench) or in Germany as pioneers. There were many variations of these 'technical' forces, and these sidearms were for utility or weapons as required. Many of these, as in Austria or Germany had sawtooth backs (see Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons").
It seems many bayonets had these features as well.

I cannot tell by the size of the photo here, and if this seems larger than a normal bayonet, as in the size of a large hanger, this is likely what it is.
It appears to be 20th c. possibly WWI period. It seems most of the 19th century forms of these had brass hilts.

TVV · 13th February 2008, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hi Freddy,
If I remember right I once saw one of these listed as being from Argentina but cannot recall where it was that I saw it.

Sorry.

Robert

My first thought was Argentine but the Argentine M1909 sidearm has checkered grips, metal scabbard, no fuller and marks all over. On some that were sold as military surplus, the crests were ground off. One thing is sure, it is very similar to the Argentine model. What are the measurements?

Regards,

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2008, 06:55 AM

I think you might be onto something Teodor. Possibly this might be a German export for Argentina. I cannot recollect exactly but I keep thinking of a bayonet I once had that I was told was from an Argentine Mauser, and it seems like it had wood grips with cross hatching (its been many moons ago!).

kronckew · 13th February 2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

I've seen similar knives offered in the replica catalogs as Union side arms for the American Civil War. They were supposedly the north's answer to the southern bowie, and were carried by riflemen.

That said, I'm pretty sure this isn't a Civil War piece. However, I'm comfortable that it's not a bayonet.

F

my first impression was also argentina.

fearn, you may be thinking of the ames rifleman's knife made in small numbers (less than a thousand) for an army rifleman regiment dispatched to the mexican war, unfortunately for them, the knives were not ready when they left so were not issued. some drifted into private hands and some were issued for the civil war. i've heard the traditional story of someone finding one at a flea market (garage/car boot sale here) for a few dollars a few decades ago. it's one of the holy grails of knife collectors.

replicas abound. mine:

(fairly good replica, they mis-spelled 'cabotville' as 'cabotsville' tho, and used wrong font for one stamp)

Freddy · 13th February 2008, 05:13 PM

Thanks for the response, guys.

First, let me give you an idea of its size. The total length is 55 cm. It's quite a big knife. The width is about 5 to 6 cm (that's a guess).

It also made me think of the sidearms worn by pioneers or 'sapeurs'. The sheath is made of leather (nicely stitched) with brass metalwork. My friend, who is a collector of WW 1 items, thinks this piece has a German origin. He deduces this from the frog stud on the locket or top mount.
The crossguard has two quillons, one pointing upwards and the other one pointing downwards.

There's no way to mount it on a gun. There is no attachment bar. I think it would be too heavy for this.

Should me friend come up with something, I will surely let you know.

Freddy · 13th February 2008, 05:21 PM

Thanks to Teodor's tip on the M 1909, I've found it

http://therionarms.com/sold/ttoy5.html

I even think it's from the site of one of our members

My friends wishes to thank all who helped him

Freddy

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2008, 09:13 PM

Bingo! Teodor, nicely done!!! Thats it OK.
Thanks for confirming that Freddy.
All best regards,
Jim

Robert · 14th February 2008, 10:33 PM

Freddy,
Thanks for the link. At least now I know where it was that I saw one of these.

Robert

12th February 2008, 09:07 PM	#1
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Some help, please Can anyone identify this knife/machete ? I'm asking for a friend. It's not a bayonet and there are no markings to be found on this piece. Thanks, Freddy

12th February 2008, 09:39 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Freddy, If I remember right I once saw one of these listed as being from Argentina but cannot recall where it was that I saw it. Sorry. Robert

12th February 2008, 09:40 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Why you say it's not a bayonet, Freddy ? Because it doesn't have the "rail" to fit in a rifle? Don't you think it sure is a military piece and still considered a bayonet ? Fernando

13th February 2008, 01:05 AM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Sure looks like a bayonet. Perhaps some kind of military sword or knife? How long is it? Overall? Blade?

13th February 2008, 02:13 AM	#5
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Could very well be a "dress" bayonet. Many were used strickly for "dress" or parade wear to be worn at the side and not mounted on the rifle, hence no rail to fit the gun. Rich S

13th February 2008, 03:02 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I've seen similar knives offered in the replica catalogs as Union side arms for the American Civil War. They were supposedly the north's answer to the southern bowie, and were carried by riflemen. That said, I'm pretty sure this isn't a Civil War piece. However, I'm comfortable that it's not a bayonet. F

13th February 2008, 04:19 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Looks very much to me like sidearms worn by specialist troops in European armies. These heavy bladed weapons were worn by the units that corresponded to engineers in U.S. troops, but were known by terms such as sappers (for the French term for an excavated trench) or in Germany as pioneers. There were many variations of these 'technical' forces, and these sidearms were for utility or weapons as required. Many of these, as in Austria or Germany had sawtooth backs (see Wagner "Cut and Thrust Weapons"). It seems many bayonets had these features as well. I cannot tell by the size of the photo here, and if this seems larger than a normal bayonet, as in the size of a large hanger, this is likely what it is. It appears to be 20th c. possibly WWI period. It seems most of the 19th century forms of these had brass hilts.

13th February 2008, 06:55 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	I think you might be onto something Teodor. Possibly this might be a German export for Argentina. I cannot recollect exactly but I keep thinking of a bayonet I once had that I was told was from an Argentine Mauser, and it seems like it had wood grips with cross hatching (its been many moons ago!).

13th February 2008, 05:13 PM	#11
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Thanks for the response, guys. First, let me give you an idea of its size. The total length is 55 cm. It's quite a big knife. The width is about 5 to 6 cm (that's a guess). It also made me think of the sidearms worn by pioneers or 'sapeurs'. The sheath is made of leather (nicely stitched) with brass metalwork. My friend, who is a collector of WW 1 items, thinks this piece has a German origin. He deduces this from the frog stud on the locket or top mount. The crossguard has two quillons, one pointing upwards and the other one pointing downwards. There's no way to mount it on a gun. There is no attachment bar. I think it would be too heavy for this. Should me friend come up with something, I will surely let you know.

13th February 2008, 05:21 PM	#12
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Thanks to Teodor's tip on the M 1909, I've found it http://therionarms.com/sold/ttoy5.html I even think it's from the site of one of our members My friends wishes to thank all who helped him Freddy

13th February 2008, 09:13 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Bingo! Teodor, nicely done!!! Thats it OK. Thanks for confirming that Freddy. All best regards, Jim

14th February 2008, 10:33 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Freddy, Thanks for the link. At least now I know where it was that I saw one of these. Robert