Marking of weapons: Anthropologically and Sociologically

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2008, 12:32 AM

Fernando, thank you so much for posting this beautiful and eloquent description of the symbolism applied by Scottish Highlanders to the basket hilt sword hilts ! I have heard of Mr. MacDonald before in research I was doing on the Scottish basket hilt, and I can see now why he was so highly recommended for answers to my questions.
If ever a toast of Drambuie was in order....it is to him for writing this .

Bill, thank you for coming in on the thread. You have great insight into this perspective so it is good to have your observations. I agree that in many societies, there was profound fear of malevolent spirits that were released when a weapon killed, and as you note, the markings certainly had meaning.

The cho on the kukri has been the subject of debate for decades that I can remember. It is a consistantly applied feature on the blade of virtually every true ethnographic kukri, and there are of course symbolic suggestions and as always, those who try to find practical application. The same is true in the so called 'Spanish notch' in Meditteranean knives and the curious notched tips in Austrian cavalry swords of the 18th century. Many suggestions that have been discussed have been compelling, however there are as far as I know, none that can be proven.

All best regards,
Jim

Paul Macdonald · 6th February 2008, 03:26 PM

Mr. MacDougall,

It seems that you already know our hearts if you like a Drambuie

Thankyou for your comments and thankyou Fernando for pointing me towards this forum. I look forward to more interesting topics in future.

Yours Very Truly,

Paul Macdonald,
Macdonald Armouries,
Macdonald Academy of Arms
http://www.historicalfencing.org/Mac...mory/index.htm
www.historicalfencing.org/Macdonaldacademy

Rick · 6th February 2008, 04:05 PM

Welcome to the forums Paul .

fernando · 6th February 2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Macdonald

... and thankyou Fernando for pointing me towards this forum ...

And i am proud to bring in such new member

.
Fernando

scratch · 7th February 2008, 09:53 AM

G'day,
Fernando, something similiar to number 5 post I think, I believe this to be a well used ceremonial Kukri.
LEECHES

Thank you Bill, I had thought the desighn to be maggot based, as in the worms of time/crom cruach, courtesy of 2000AD comics

What an interesting thread this is! Thanks to the instigator.

Cheers,

Dan

fernando · 7th February 2008, 01:01 PM

Jim McDougall, the instigator

Bill M · 8th February 2008, 12:07 AM

In many societies twins are considered magical or mystical because it is thought that twins share a common soul.

The legend says that long ago in a Batak kingdom in Summatra a noble woman was about to give birth when a shaman predicted she would give birth to twins. A boy and a girl.

The shaman told the parents that the children should be separated at birth and never allowed to meet, or the consequences would be dire.

So after their birth the twins were separated. Each was sent to far ends of the kingdom, the parents hoping the sheer distance between them would prevent them ever meeting.

However, as they reached their teenage years they each felt an urge to travel. They met, not knowing they were siblings. They found an instant rapport and spent the night together.

The next morning they awoke and walked together into a great forest. They heard a strange sound high in a tree. The boy climbed up through the branches to investigate.

The girl waited on the ground for some time calling out to the boy, who did not answer. So she climbed the tree also.

Word had spread to the parents and, fearing the worst, the parents sought their children. They found them at the top of the tree, frozen together forever.

This is the hilt of a Piso ne Datu. "Sword of the Magician." Swords like this were considered too powerful to be kept inside a home and had their own special house.

I find the carving quite interesting.

whistlinbill · 20th October 2010, 10:23 PM

To follow on to the Kukri blade cutout and the line(s) down the blade's back: One time when I was in Dehra Dun at the Windlass factory, one of the managers there had been in the 1971 scrap between Bangladesh and Pakistan, with the Indians thrown into the mix. He had been attached to a Gurkha unit; he said the cutout on the blade edge is the trident of Shiva; the line(s) on the kukri's back is the spear of Kali; together, they make the kukri effective. (Remember--Nepal is the only country in the world that has the Hindu religion as the state religion. In India, you can just wander in and out of Hindu temples--in Nepal, the temples I saw there had guards [Gurkhas with MK2 Sten guns] at the doors, and I reckon they'd blow you away if you tried to go inside!)
Samuel Setian showed me what one type of the "Spanish notch" is for: You use it with the blade placed edge upwards; you put your thumbnail into the notch so you can better control the point.

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2008, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Macdonald

Mr. MacDougall,

It seems that you already know our hearts if you like a Drambuie

Thankyou for your comments and thankyou Fernando for pointing me towards this forum. I look forward to more interesting topics in future.

Yours Very Truly,

Paul Macdonald,
Macdonald Armouries,
Macdonald Academy of Arms
http://www.historicalfencing.org/Mac...mory/index.htm
www.historicalfencing.org/Macdonaldacademy

I would like to thank you so much for joining us here Mr MacDonald, and in welcoming you with the others, I am looking forward to your keen insight in future posts.
I do indeed know and understand the hearts of the Highlands, and the Drambuie!

With sincerest regards,
Jim

6th February 2008, 03:26 PM	#2
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Slainte! Mr. MacDougall, It seems that you already know our hearts if you like a Drambuie Thankyou for your comments and thankyou Fernando for pointing me towards this forum. I look forward to more interesting topics in future. Yours Very Truly, Paul Macdonald, Macdonald Armouries, Macdonald Academy of Arms http://www.historicalfencing.org/Mac...mory/index.htm www.historicalfencing.org/Macdonaldacademy

7th February 2008, 09:53 AM	#5
scratch Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 96	G'day, Fernando, something similiar to number 5 post I think, I believe this to be a well used ceremonial Kukri. LEECHES Thank you Bill, I had thought the desighn to be maggot based, as in the worms of time/crom cruach, courtesy of 2000AD comics What an interesting thread this is! Thanks to the instigator. Cheers, Dan Attached Images

20th October 2010, 10:23 PM	#8
whistlinbill Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 24	The Kukri blade Cutout And The "Spanish Notch" To follow on to the Kukri blade cutout and the line(s) down the blade's back: One time when I was in Dehra Dun at the Windlass factory, one of the managers there had been in the 1971 scrap between Bangladesh and Pakistan, with the Indians thrown into the mix. He had been attached to a Gurkha unit; he said the cutout on the blade edge is the trident of Shiva; the line(s) on the kukri's back is the spear of Kali; together, they make the kukri effective. (Remember--Nepal is the only country in the world that has the Hindu religion as the state religion. In India, you can just wander in and out of Hindu temples--in Nepal, the temples I saw there had guards [Gurkhas with MK2 Sten guns] at the doors, and I reckon they'd blow you away if you tried to go inside!) Samuel Setian showed me what one type of the "Spanish notch" is for: You use it with the blade placed edge upwards; you put your thumbnail into the notch so you can better control the point.

5th February 2008, 12:32 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Fernando, thank you so much for posting this beautiful and eloquent description of the symbolism applied by Scottish Highlanders to the basket hilt sword hilts ! I have heard of Mr. MacDonald before in research I was doing on the Scottish basket hilt, and I can see now why he was so highly recommended for answers to my questions. If ever a toast of Drambuie was in order....it is to him for writing this . Bill, thank you for coming in on the thread. You have great insight into this perspective so it is good to have your observations. I agree that in many societies, there was profound fear of malevolent spirits that were released when a weapon killed, and as you note, the markings certainly had meaning. The cho on the kukri has been the subject of debate for decades that I can remember. It is a consistantly applied feature on the blade of virtually every true ethnographic kukri, and there are of course symbolic suggestions and as always, those who try to find practical application. The same is true in the so called 'Spanish notch' in Meditteranean knives and the curious notched tips in Austrian cavalry swords of the 18th century. Many suggestions that have been discussed have been compelling, however there are as far as I know, none that can be proven. All best regards, Jim

6th February 2008, 04:05 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Welcome to the forums Paul .

7th February 2008, 01:01 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim McDougall, the instigator

8th February 2008, 12:07 AM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	In many societies twins are considered magical or mystical because it is thought that twins share a common soul. The legend says that long ago in a Batak kingdom in Summatra a noble woman was about to give birth when a shaman predicted she would give birth to twins. A boy and a girl. The shaman told the parents that the children should be separated at birth and never allowed to meet, or the consequences would be dire. So after their birth the twins were separated. Each was sent to far ends of the kingdom, the parents hoping the sheer distance between them would prevent them ever meeting. However, as they reached their teenage years they each felt an urge to travel. They met, not knowing they were siblings. They found an instant rapport and spent the night together. The next morning they awoke and walked together into a great forest. They heard a strange sound high in a tree. The boy climbed up through the branches to investigate. The girl waited on the ground for some time calling out to the boy, who did not answer. So she climbed the tree also. Word had spread to the parents and, fearing the worst, the parents sought their children. They found them at the top of the tree, frozen together forever. This is the hilt of a Piso ne Datu. "Sword of the Magician." Swords like this were considered too powerful to be kept inside a home and had their own special house. I find the carving quite interesting.