Raksasa

VVV · 4th February 2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...It is probable that this handle was intended to represent some being, however, did the carver know what being it was supposed to represent, or was he following an earlier pattern and adding his own embellishments?

Can we date this handle with reasonable certainty?

Having dated it, can we say that the carver was working from an earlier handle of similar pattern?

Or can we assume that he was working from an earlier handle with a less abstracted form?

Or can we accept that he created this handle form anew from an idea that he himself originated?

(snip)

I have a collection of a very large number of keris handles. I do not know exactly how many I have, but I do know that I have well over 100 handles made of ivory. When these handles are sorted into groups bearing similar characteristics, it is possible to identify recurring themes, and observe variations. Moving from end to end of the range in variation can produce figures at either end of the range that bear little resemblance to each other...

Alan,

Please note that I wrote that it "could be a Yaksha?".
Of course it's hard to say that it definately is one.

What IMHO speaks against some of your, otherwise valid, arguments above is that specifically this hilt seems to be quite unique in its form/pattern.
Do you f.i. in your large hilt collection have two hilts that overall resembles this one in style?
I haven't found any in the museum archives that I know of. The closest one in style is the Java-Kalimantan-flower-holding-old-magic-hilt pictured in for instance the Budaya Indonesia book on page 211.

I am also a bit sceptical to that everything changed after "societal dominance by Islam".
To me it's obvious that a lot of old Hindu beliefs and rituals still is practiced on Java today. They even have kept their old Sanskrit names!
Christendom has dominated southern Europe for quite some time but over 1000 years afterwards you still could see motifs and symbolism from the old Greco-Roman religion. Up here in North of Europe still 1000 - 1200 years after we got "christened" (in the 9th C) the same could be noticed regarding traditions and symbolism of the old Norse religion. Like a typical Swedish Midsummer celebration.
Some symbolism, traditions and beliefs seems to survive a very long time after a new religion has gained dominance. In my experience this is especially valid within magic, talismans, protective and fertility needs etc.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2008, 11:56 AM

Agreed Michael, it could be a yaksha.

In fact it could be anything.

Perhaps the carver knew what it was.

Perhaps he did not.

Perhaps it was an abstraction of an abstraction .

Perhaps it was an original creation.

To clarify a point Michael, I have put no arguments in my comments. I am not pushing any barrow here, I am simply attempting to place on record the situation in respect of interpretation of SE Asian art, as it appears to be understood by a number of people who know vastly more than I do about the subject. What I have gathered is that it is often rather futlie to attempt to interpret things that we do not understand, indeed, can have no hope of understanding. Most especially when people within the same time frame and from the same cultural background cannot understand those things if they lack the specialist knowledge that will allow them to understand.

There is no need for you to be a bit sceptical that everything changed after societal dominance by Islam.

Of course everything did not change.

And I have at no time suggested that everything did change.

What I said about Islam was this:-

This question is of course meaningless unless it it is framed within the historical structure of the relevant society, thus in Jawa this point could be argued to have occurred with societal dominance by Islam, whilst in Bali the point in time will be a different one.

I have used this as an example, not as a definitive. The point at which the societal shift took place could as easily have been with the organisation of Javanese society into into city states; it could have been with the shift of power from Central Jawa to East Jawa, it could have been with any number of things, and I am not suggesting for one moment that I have any idea when this point may have been reached. I have no idea when professional carvers appeared on the scene in Jawa and began to produce art works rather than talismanically potent personal adornments that served a societal purpose.

What I am suggesting is this:- to hypothesise upon the identity of an abstracted figure from a time long past, and from a society that is only partially understood, even by authorities respected as expert on that society and its history, organisation and beliefs is an entertaining pastime, but hardly a useful one, and has the potential to mislead, rather than to provide substantial answers.

It is always very tempting to attempt to build constructs on those things we do not understand.

We see all this artistic variety and abstraction in Javanese keris handles, and we would not be human if we did not try to affix identities to those hilt figures.However, the truth could be vastly different from our hypotheses, and at this remove it is impossible know with any certainty what that truth may be.Most especially is it impossible in the case of representation bearing a set of unique characteristics that prevents it being aligned with known and acknowledged forms.

VVV · 4th February 2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...(snip) We see all this artistic variety and abstraction in Javanese keris handles, and we would not be human if we did not try to affix identities to those hilt figures.However, the truth could be vastly different from our hypotheses, and at this remove it is impossible know with any certainty what that truth may be.Most especially is it impossible in the case of representation bearing a set of unique characteristics that prevents it being aligned with known and acknowledged forms.

Alan,

Probably I misunderstood your earlier posts on what you wanted to state with your questions.
As well as the "societal dominance by Islam"-part.
On the quote above it seems like we agree.

You who don't want to give a public opinion based on that you can't prove it for sure (which I of course respect as the proper professional way).

And I who, being human

, can't help to speculate in an identity. But I specify it as a "could be" and that "I am open to other suggestions". The reason for this is of course that I am curious on other people's, like yours, Tunggulametung's and other forumites', ideas on this hilt. This even if we probably never will be able to 100% prove what it actually was supposed to be and symbolize.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2008, 08:41 PM

In face to face conversation with a group of friends, maybe after dinner, and over a couple ports, this type of speculation and discussion has a place. Nothing is on record, we can float the most outlandish possibilities, and nobody really cares, its just conversation to fill time . Nobody pins us down to any sort of critical thinking or standard, we are not called on to justify anything, nor to substantiate anything. We can simply say what we think something might look like, and nobody is sufficiently ill-mannered to point out that we know absolutely nothing about the culture, society, or history that produced the item, nor about the item itself. We float an opinion, have another glass of port and move on to discussion of the prices at last week's yearling sales.

However, in this Forum, our little Warung Kopi, we have managed to gather together some fairly serious people, who are in turn fairly serious about the subjects that are discussed. A casual reader, or a reader who did not understand the nuances of the English language, could interpret a speculative claim for something as an authoritative claim, and that claim can be repeated in other places, eventually damaging the reputation of the person who speculated, and of the discussion group which allowed the speculation to pass without challenge. Once the reputation of any person, or organisation is damaged, it is very difficult to reclaim the former good reputation. Keris Warung Kopi is an organisation, and for our own credibility, we need to protect the reputation of our organisation.

Battara · 4th February 2008, 10:25 PM

I agree with Alan that many things did change with the cultural acceptance of Islam for Java and others. This also happened in the southern Philippines. Now there were still old practices that did not die out then, but for example, the use of clear images of animals and people changed to more abstract forms. This occured the area of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the southern Philippines to follow the edict of "no graven images". Just one example among many. I thus find more abstract expressions than not in kris hilts among areas that are not Balinese or Madura.

David · 4th February 2008, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Agreed Michael, it could be a yaksha.

In fact it could be anything.

Perhaps the carver knew what it was.

Perhaps he did not.

Perhaps it was an abstraction of an abstraction .

Perhaps it was an original creation.

Well Michael, i'll tell you what it IS. It's beautiful! But, of course, even that is a subjective opinion. I, however, find great beauty in it.

VVV · 5th February 2008, 07:08 AM

On the seriousness issue; to me a coffee shop discussion group isn't at the same level as a university seminar.
Like wikipedia I don't think that this forum ever will be accepted as a valid, standalone, academic reference for facts about the Keris.
Some of the members however, like Alan, could qualify. But then based on their articles, not their posts on this forum.
So I respect if he, and others, don't want to share their hard to prove ideas on the forum.
But I hope those who do is allowed to do so as long as they state that it's a "could be" or something similar?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 5th February 2008, 08:23 AM

Yeah, you're probably right Michael, and I must admit, one of my pet hatreds is this thing of floating ideas without evidence, and without an understanding of the foundations. Going back maybe 30 or 40 years I was a massive offender in this respect, but I finished up with egg on my face too often, so these days I if I float ideas I want to be able to support them. Thus it annoys me when I see ideas floated that are just ideas. My deficiency, and it should not effect anybody else, if, as you say the ideas are qualified as possibilities only.

But the real problem is, I think, that things said here can get picked up and retailed in other places. If those ideas are taken out of context, and without the qualifying rider, then you can get a situation where a wrong concept gets started.You're right, this discussion group will not ever achieve academic status, and I doubt that most members of it would want that in any case, but it is the most widely accepted internet keris reference in a western language.To my mind, that makes it something that we should take good care of.

The nature of any discussion is that any contributor to the discussion can say whatever he may please to say, provided he is prepared to stand behind his utterances. If this is accepted, then of course anybody may float any idea they wish, provided any other person may speak against that idea. The essential element is that we maintain discussion, and do our level best to prevent that discussion from deteriorating into distasteful argument.

Marcokeris · 7th February 2008, 03:57 PM

Michel
A nice (bone?) handle .
Also I agree with Alan: it's very difficult to undestand if there is someone in the hit. IMO it is a floral Madura (...or kalimantan or Bali

) hit in which the hit maker has put into it a personal fanciful interpretetion about the floral matter.

This my bone jawa hit a similar example: cold be Central Jawa or Madura but, without doubt a personal iterpretation of a Yoya/Solo hilt
Marco

A. G. Maisey · 7th February 2008, 09:47 PM

Stylistically this handle of Michael's fits squarely into the Madura janggelan parameters, but saying "Madura" can also extend its origin to North Coast Jawa adjacent to Madura.
If you look at enough of these handles, and then compare them with the donoriko, what you can see is that the top of the janggelan, what we'd call a pommel on a European hilt, is in fact done in a way that follows the form of the donoriko, but because of the restrictions of the material, it is miniaturised, additionally, because the material does not permit full expression of the donoriko form, you find that the curled over part will very often have some sort head or face in it, often a bird's head.
I've got two very old ivory handles that have pretty much the same form as Michael's, the details are different, but then the details in many old handles are different. I pulled out 8 or 10 handles last night that to my eye show a relationship in artistic expression that flows from the nicely rounded form of Michael's, and my two similar ones, to a similar idea, but expressed in a much flatter way, dictated by the carver's use of the side of a tusk, rather than solid material. This is fairly easy to see with them all lined up together, and able to be held and turned, but I can't see how I can photograph them to demonstrate it. I'll give this some thought, and if I can work out how to get the relationship across I'll do some pics and post them.
I've seen present day carvers, of very high skill levels, working often. Where they have freedom to move in a design, they will always follow what the material tells them needs to be done to it. A couple have told me that the finished carving is already there in the material, all they do is to release it.

7th February 2008, 03:57 PM	#9
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Michel A nice (bone?) handle . Also I agree with Alan: it's very difficult to undestand if there is someone in the hit. IMO it is a floral Madura (...or kalimantan or Bali ) hit in which the hit maker has put into it a personal fanciful interpretetion about the floral matter. This my bone jawa hit a similar example: cold be Central Jawa or Madura but, without doubt a personal iterpretation of a Yoya/Solo hilt Marco Attached Images

4th February 2008, 11:56 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Agreed Michael, it could be a yaksha. In fact it could be anything. Perhaps the carver knew what it was. Perhaps he did not. Perhaps it was an abstraction of an abstraction . Perhaps it was an original creation. To clarify a point Michael, I have put no arguments in my comments. I am not pushing any barrow here, I am simply attempting to place on record the situation in respect of interpretation of SE Asian art, as it appears to be understood by a number of people who know vastly more than I do about the subject. What I have gathered is that it is often rather futlie to attempt to interpret things that we do not understand, indeed, can have no hope of understanding. Most especially when people within the same time frame and from the same cultural background cannot understand those things if they lack the specialist knowledge that will allow them to understand. There is no need for you to be a bit sceptical that everything changed after societal dominance by Islam. Of course everything did not change. And I have at no time suggested that everything did change. What I said about Islam was this:- This question is of course meaningless unless it it is framed within the historical structure of the relevant society, thus in Jawa this point could be argued to have occurred with societal dominance by Islam, whilst in Bali the point in time will be a different one. I have used this as an example, not as a definitive. The point at which the societal shift took place could as easily have been with the organisation of Javanese society into into city states; it could have been with the shift of power from Central Jawa to East Jawa, it could have been with any number of things, and I am not suggesting for one moment that I have any idea when this point may have been reached. I have no idea when professional carvers appeared on the scene in Jawa and began to produce art works rather than talismanically potent personal adornments that served a societal purpose. What I am suggesting is this:- to hypothesise upon the identity of an abstracted figure from a time long past, and from a society that is only partially understood, even by authorities respected as expert on that society and its history, organisation and beliefs is an entertaining pastime, but hardly a useful one, and has the potential to mislead, rather than to provide substantial answers. It is always very tempting to attempt to build constructs on those things we do not understand. We see all this artistic variety and abstraction in Javanese keris handles, and we would not be human if we did not try to affix identities to those hilt figures.However, the truth could be vastly different from our hypotheses, and at this remove it is impossible know with any certainty what that truth may be.Most especially is it impossible in the case of representation bearing a set of unique characteristics that prevents it being aligned with known and acknowledged forms.

4th February 2008, 08:41 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	In face to face conversation with a group of friends, maybe after dinner, and over a couple ports, this type of speculation and discussion has a place. Nothing is on record, we can float the most outlandish possibilities, and nobody really cares, its just conversation to fill time . Nobody pins us down to any sort of critical thinking or standard, we are not called on to justify anything, nor to substantiate anything. We can simply say what we think something might look like, and nobody is sufficiently ill-mannered to point out that we know absolutely nothing about the culture, society, or history that produced the item, nor about the item itself. We float an opinion, have another glass of port and move on to discussion of the prices at last week's yearling sales. However, in this Forum, our little Warung Kopi, we have managed to gather together some fairly serious people, who are in turn fairly serious about the subjects that are discussed. A casual reader, or a reader who did not understand the nuances of the English language, could interpret a speculative claim for something as an authoritative claim, and that claim can be repeated in other places, eventually damaging the reputation of the person who speculated, and of the discussion group which allowed the speculation to pass without challenge. Once the reputation of any person, or organisation is damaged, it is very difficult to reclaim the former good reputation. Keris Warung Kopi is an organisation, and for our own credibility, we need to protect the reputation of our organisation.

4th February 2008, 10:25 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	I agree with Alan that many things did change with the cultural acceptance of Islam for Java and others. This also happened in the southern Philippines. Now there were still old practices that did not die out then, but for example, the use of clear images of animals and people changed to more abstract forms. This occured the area of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the southern Philippines to follow the edict of "no graven images". Just one example among many. I thus find more abstract expressions than not in kris hilts among areas that are not Balinese or Madura.

5th February 2008, 07:08 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	On the seriousness issue; to me a coffee shop discussion group isn't at the same level as a university seminar. Like wikipedia I don't think that this forum ever will be accepted as a valid, standalone, academic reference for facts about the Keris. Some of the members however, like Alan, could qualify. But then based on their articles, not their posts on this forum. So I respect if he, and others, don't want to share their hard to prove ideas on the forum. But I hope those who do is allowed to do so as long as they state that it's a "could be" or something similar? Michael

5th February 2008, 08:23 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Yeah, you're probably right Michael, and I must admit, one of my pet hatreds is this thing of floating ideas without evidence, and without an understanding of the foundations. Going back maybe 30 or 40 years I was a massive offender in this respect, but I finished up with egg on my face too often, so these days I if I float ideas I want to be able to support them. Thus it annoys me when I see ideas floated that are just ideas. My deficiency, and it should not effect anybody else, if, as you say the ideas are qualified as possibilities only. But the real problem is, I think, that things said here can get picked up and retailed in other places. If those ideas are taken out of context, and without the qualifying rider, then you can get a situation where a wrong concept gets started.You're right, this discussion group will not ever achieve academic status, and I doubt that most members of it would want that in any case, but it is the most widely accepted internet keris reference in a western language.To my mind, that makes it something that we should take good care of. The nature of any discussion is that any contributor to the discussion can say whatever he may please to say, provided he is prepared to stand behind his utterances. If this is accepted, then of course anybody may float any idea they wish, provided any other person may speak against that idea. The essential element is that we maintain discussion, and do our level best to prevent that discussion from deteriorating into distasteful argument.

7th February 2008, 09:47 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Stylistically this handle of Michael's fits squarely into the Madura janggelan parameters, but saying "Madura" can also extend its origin to North Coast Jawa adjacent to Madura. If you look at enough of these handles, and then compare them with the donoriko, what you can see is that the top of the janggelan, what we'd call a pommel on a European hilt, is in fact done in a way that follows the form of the donoriko, but because of the restrictions of the material, it is miniaturised, additionally, because the material does not permit full expression of the donoriko form, you find that the curled over part will very often have some sort head or face in it, often a bird's head. I've got two very old ivory handles that have pretty much the same form as Michael's, the details are different, but then the details in many old handles are different. I pulled out 8 or 10 handles last night that to my eye show a relationship in artistic expression that flows from the nicely rounded form of Michael's, and my two similar ones, to a similar idea, but expressed in a much flatter way, dictated by the carver's use of the side of a tusk, rather than solid material. This is fairly easy to see with them all lined up together, and able to be held and turned, but I can't see how I can photograph them to demonstrate it. I'll give this some thought, and if I can work out how to get the relationship across I'll do some pics and post them. I've seen present day carvers, of very high skill levels, working often. Where they have freedom to move in a design, they will always follow what the material tells them needs to be done to it. A couple have told me that the finished carving is already there in the material, all they do is to release it.