Kocet-Kocetan hilt form

tunggulametung · 1st February 2008, 03:31 PM

Kocetkocetan is a name of a bug in Balinese (I attached a picture from internet). I ask my Balinese friend about kurisi and kusia, both have no meaning to him. Internet search result: Kusia is a name of a banjar in Sawan, Buleleng

In Minang, both kurisi and kusia will have a meaning, kurisi=kursi=chair, kusia=kusir=horse courier

Kepompong is cocoon.

That Kocet is equal to Batara Karpa is the most interesting part....I'll try to dig on this one...

Alam Shah · 1st February 2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Kocetkocetan is a name of a bug in Balinese (I attached a picture from internet).

This makes sense... I thought so, just to confirm. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

I ask my Balinese friend about kurisi and kusia, both have no meaning to him. Internet search result: Kusia is a name of a banjar in Sawan, Buleleng

In Minang, both kurisi and kusia will have a meaning, kurisi=kursi=chair, kusia=kusir=horse courier

Kepompong is cocoon.

As for 'kurisi', horse courier sound more meaningful(?), need to explore...
Ah! cocoon. Thanks again for your help... really appreciate it.

Marcokeris · 2nd February 2008, 12:05 PM

Michel
i would like to know when the name:"kocetkocetan" rise for the first time.
Maybe in the mr. Marval's book "ukiran"? (

perhaps this book was written with the collaboration of Mr. M. Kerner: in the book there are a lot of mr. MK's hits.)
....it would be nice to have mr. Marval or mr. Kerner in the forum...

Marco

Mick · 2nd February 2008, 01:56 PM

Without getting into a deep meanings for this grip form, it has always looked to me to be a depiction of a Luna Moth (or a local similar large moth) just after it has left the cocoon and is waiting for its wings to dry before it can fly away.

VVV · 2nd February 2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Michel
i would like to know when the name:"kocetkocetan" rise for the first time.
Maybe in the mr. Marval's book "ukiran"? (

perhaps this book was written with the collaboration of Mr. M. Kerner: in the book there are a lot of mr. MK's hits.)
....it would be nice to have mr. Marval or mr. Kerner in the forum...

Marco

Marco,

Already in Jasper & Pirngadie's classic book De inlandsche kunstnijverheid in Nederlandsch Indie from 1912 is "kotjèt-kotjèttan" mentioned (fig. 325).

Michael

Michel · 2nd February 2008, 02:16 PM

Yes Marco,
Its a long time I wish Gaspar de Marval would join the forum as he has a very extensive knowledge of the kris world and of many aspects of the Indonesian culture but unfortunately I do not think he works with a computer and to my knowledge he does not have any experience with Internet. Now my information are a bit old, as I think that the last time I saw him was 3 years ago !
In all his writings related to kris, the pictures I have found were of the same origin and the handle Kocekocetan was identified as an insect and coming from Bali. The first one being : le kris, Java et Bali in the Gazette des Armes of June 1976.Ukiran is dated from May 1993 and Le Monde du kris is from 1997.
Was Ukiran written with Martin Kerner ? I have no idea but I could ask !
I am sorry not being able to bring more valid information on Kocetkocetan origin and time of appearance but I think that what I should do is to write to Gaspar de Marval and try to convince him to join the forum ! It may take some time but one never knows, I may succeed !
Regards
Michel

fearn · 2nd February 2008, 04:30 PM

Hi All,

Not a keris expert, but I am a biologist. I agree with tunggulametung. Specifically, it looks like the pupa of a long-horned boring beetle (family cerambycidae). The "horse head" is actually the head and mandibles of the beetle. The fact that the abdomen is shown on the back, and the wings aren't fully formed, along with the orientation of the curled antennae, make me pretty sure that this is a pupa, not an adult beetle. Beetles go through a complete metamorphosis, as do moths, so the similarity with a moth (noted by Mick) is understandable.

Here's the science content: these beetles are not water bugs, but their larvae live in wood, and they include some of the largest insects in the world. They can certainly provide surprises, as the larvae can live in wood for years (wood isn't very nutritious, and they tend to grow slowly--the record I've heard is 50 years in a piece of furniture, and I've personally seen two years in an oak gavel I made), and when they get big enough, they metamorphose (the form shown here), and the adults come out, have sex, lay their eggs and die. Most of the cerambycids are tiny, but the largest can certainly be the size of a keris hilt, and I think that includes some Malaysian species.

Here's my guess for the origin of the hilt: some woodworker "unearthed" a pupa of one of these beetles in a piece of wood he was working on. Said woodworker made keris hilts, and he was also a bit of an innovator. He looked at this bizarre thing he'd dug out, the light went on, and a new hilt-form was born.

My 0.002 cents,

F

Edit: I'd even venture a guess for the beetle species: the sal heartwood borer (Hoplocerambyx spinicornis), which eats the wood of the sal tree (Shorea robusta), and is a fairly serious pest. The grubs of this beetle are reportedly eaten around Sarawak. From Wikipedia, resin from the sal tree is burned as incense in Hindu ceremonies, and sal is one of the most important timbers in India. Suggestive link between insect, plant, and hinduism, isn't it?

Here's a pic

1st February 2008, 03:31 PM	#1
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Kocetkocetan is a name of a bug in Balinese (I attached a picture from internet). I ask my Balinese friend about kurisi and kusia, both have no meaning to him. Internet search result: Kusia is a name of a banjar in Sawan, Buleleng In Minang, both kurisi and kusia will have a meaning, kurisi=kursi=chair, kusia=kusir=horse courier Kepompong is cocoon. That Kocet is equal to Batara Karpa is the most interesting part....I'll try to dig on this one... Attached Images

2nd February 2008, 02:16 PM	#6
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Kocetkocetan Yes Marco, Its a long time I wish Gaspar de Marval would join the forum as he has a very extensive knowledge of the kris world and of many aspects of the Indonesian culture but unfortunately I do not think he works with a computer and to my knowledge he does not have any experience with Internet. Now my information are a bit old, as I think that the last time I saw him was 3 years ago ! In all his writings related to kris, the pictures I have found were of the same origin and the handle Kocekocetan was identified as an insect and coming from Bali. The first one being : le kris, Java et Bali in the Gazette des Armes of June 1976.Ukiran is dated from May 1993 and Le Monde du kris is from 1997. Was Ukiran written with Martin Kerner ? I have no idea but I could ask ! I am sorry not being able to bring more valid information on Kocetkocetan origin and time of appearance but I think that what I should do is to write to Gaspar de Marval and try to convince him to join the forum ! It may take some time but one never knows, I may succeed ! Regards Michel

2nd February 2008, 04:30 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, Not a keris expert, but I am a biologist. I agree with tunggulametung. Specifically, it looks like the pupa of a long-horned boring beetle (family cerambycidae). The "horse head" is actually the head and mandibles of the beetle. The fact that the abdomen is shown on the back, and the wings aren't fully formed, along with the orientation of the curled antennae, make me pretty sure that this is a pupa, not an adult beetle. Beetles go through a complete metamorphosis, as do moths, so the similarity with a moth (noted by Mick) is understandable. Here's the science content: these beetles are not water bugs, but their larvae live in wood, and they include some of the largest insects in the world. They can certainly provide surprises, as the larvae can live in wood for years (wood isn't very nutritious, and they tend to grow slowly--the record I've heard is 50 years in a piece of furniture, and I've personally seen two years in an oak gavel I made), and when they get big enough, they metamorphose (the form shown here), and the adults come out, have sex, lay their eggs and die. Most of the cerambycids are tiny, but the largest can certainly be the size of a keris hilt, and I think that includes some Malaysian species. Here's my guess for the origin of the hilt: some woodworker "unearthed" a pupa of one of these beetles in a piece of wood he was working on. Said woodworker made keris hilts, and he was also a bit of an innovator. He looked at this bizarre thing he'd dug out, the light went on, and a new hilt-form was born. My 0.002 cents, F Edit: I'd even venture a guess for the beetle species: the sal heartwood borer (Hoplocerambyx spinicornis), which eats the wood of the sal tree (Shorea robusta), and is a fairly serious pest. The grubs of this beetle are reportedly eaten around Sarawak. From Wikipedia, resin from the sal tree is burned as incense in Hindu ceremonies, and sal is one of the most important timbers in India. Suggestive link between insect, plant, and hinduism, isn't it? Here's a pic Attached Images Last edited by fearn; 2nd February 2008 at 05:43 PM.

2nd February 2008, 12:05 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Michel i would like to know when the name:"kocetkocetan" rise for the first time. Maybe in the mr. Marval's book "ukiran"? ( perhaps this book was written with the collaboration of Mr. M. Kerner: in the book there are a lot of mr. MK's hits.) ....it would be nice to have mr. Marval or mr. Kerner in the forum... Marco

2nd February 2008, 01:56 PM	#4
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Without getting into a deep meanings for this grip form, it has always looked to me to be a depiction of a Luna Moth (or a local similar large moth) just after it has left the cocoon and is waiting for its wings to dry before it can fly away.