Kukri

spiral · 1st February 2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Say Spiral, are damascus pieces rarer?

Yes they are rarer indeed, but i think there more of them out there than we often realise. Most old kukris seem to have been cleaned with abrasives or polished & that hides laminations usualy.

Some may be shear steel rather than deliberatly patterned.

Always a nice feature though!

Spiral

Tatyana Dianova · 1st February 2008, 09:08 PM

Thank you all for the kind words! The swords (and people too) love the compliments

But we really should praise the creator(s) of this beautiful piece.
Thank you Spiral for the information, it answered many my questions. I have etched it with phosphoric acid, very lightly, so that the layers are seen only under certain angle. I didn't want that the etching mess with the kukri's beautiful geometry and fullers. Do you know, Spiral, how it could be looking originally, maybe the layers were not seen at all (not etched)? Do you know the meaning of the red paint?
I didn't knew it was a pattern welded steel until I have tested it with acid. The blade and the handle were quite dirty and rusty in some places (I have added the original seller's pictures).
The funny thing is that I was the ONLY bidder for this kukri. I gave exactly the start price on the last seconds of the auction and was VERY surprised and happy when I have won it

Well, I think I was lucky...

Tim Simmons · 1st February 2008, 09:23 PM

Tatyana your eye is very good. A handsome weapon. Seeing the before and after pictures I think Battara is right. The decorated part of the handle is a white metal, I suspect it is a zinc alloy of some kind able to take braising as there appears to be a yellow line in the handle. I also think Spiral is correct in his first opinion as to origin and age.

spiral · 1st February 2008, 09:36 PM

Thankyouy Tatyana, my memory must be at fault, perhaps i just thought of bidding!

I think it was about 4 months ago? You did well. Its a very nice kukri.

I suspect the red paint is of Religous or spiritual meaning, red powders, spices ar scattered widley during Hindu celebrations & sacraficial festivals I understand. one sees it commonly on sacraficial kora.

I think the kukri of such subtle patterns was peraps not originaly etched, but just made in the manner of shear steel to do an efficent job, But truly i dont know. I am just speculating.

Tim Lots of these do have steel handles its also usual for them to be braised . A quick magnet test by Tatyana would confirm one way or another of course. Ornate white handles are not common, embosed & engraved Steel is much commoner & of course requires greater skill to work &
far more resistant to denting etc.

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 1st February 2008, 09:41 PM

There may be degrees of hardness but skill is applyed any metal not metals to skills.

spiral · 1st February 2008, 10:01 PM

Sure Tim anyone who did that work even if it was in a bar or soap is very skilled but Ive watched modern kami used to making brass & white metal fittings, then make them in steel, it took infinatly longer & they seemed to require much greater concentration.

Different mediums work differently, carving pear wood is very different from carving greenheart for instance.

Thanks for confirming its steel Tatyana.

Spiral

Tatyana Dianova · 1st February 2008, 09:59 PM

Tim, the handle is really made of steel - have you ever seen a rusted zinc alloy??? And there was a LOT of red rust under all this dirt on the handle (well, you may see some rust on original pictures too). What is even more interesting, the steel on the handle is well hardened: I have used very hard dentist instruments for cleaning the hundred year old dirt from the handle, and they hardly left any scratches. I don't know, if the hardening was made before or after the decoration work...
I have also tested the handle with a magnet a minute ago - yes, it is steel!
The yellow (brass) connection lines you may see also on some other steel handles, for example on 2 Afghani pulouars I have.

Tatyana Dianova · 1st February 2008, 10:05 PM

Spiral, this auction was in December 2007, I'll send you the link in the private message

Tatyana Dianova · 1st February 2008, 10:11 PM

Spiral, I cannot send you a message at the moment - it seems that you have exceeded your limit for the incoming messages

Tatyana Dianova · 1st February 2008, 10:17 PM

Tim, no need to apologise - the pictures may be very deceiving. The blade was polished and etched, and the handled was only cleaned with sharp tools and Flitz. There is still dirt and patina hiding in the decoration. That's why it look different on the pictures, but if you would hold it in your hand, you will see immediately that it is steel. And yes, I have made the magnet test (POSITIVE!), as I have already mentioned

Tim Simmons · 1st February 2008, 10:10 PM

Tatyana I do beg your pardon if I am wrong. I can only form ideas through a PC. I have to add that zinc is not a denigration of the item it is in fact the opposite, a sign of quality having been used as a decorative white metal in the east thousands of years before it was smelted in western Europe. Please try the magnet test as it does look so different from the blade and I am the second to dare mention so.

spiral · 1st February 2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

Tim, the handle is really made of steel - have you ever seen a rusted zinc alloy???
I have also tested the handle with a magnet a minute ago - yes, it is steel!
The yellow (brass) connection lines you may see also on some other steel handles, for example on 2 Afghani pulouars I have.

Tim read Tatyanas last post again!

O well Tatyana if that was december it must have been pre. Christmas, that seems a long time ago now!

message room cleared!

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 1st February 2008, 10:17 PM

Yes I keep looking. I still see no rust on the decorative part. Perhaps Tatyana could provide more pictures? the different hue is all I can see? I am not trying to say zinc is lesser the exact opposite in fact.

Tatyana Dianova · 1st February 2008, 10:19 PM

Tim, sorry, I have removed the red rust and cannot make its picture for you

spiral · 1st February 2008, 10:21 PM

Ask Inveterate Tim hes had loads of steel ones, in kukris whte metal grips are much rarer & less well made.

Steel is best in kukris & Personly if Tatyana says a magnet sticks I belive it . Perhaps you are mistaking the chemical cleaning patina for white metal?

After all nearly all grips like this are steel. I seem to recall you had a steel one with silver plate added?

Spiral

1st February 2008, 09:08 PM	#2
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Thank you all for the kind words! The swords (and people too) love the compliments But we really should praise the creator(s) of this beautiful piece. Thank you Spiral for the information, it answered many my questions. I have etched it with phosphoric acid, very lightly, so that the layers are seen only under certain angle. I didn't want that the etching mess with the kukri's beautiful geometry and fullers. Do you know, Spiral, how it could be looking originally, maybe the layers were not seen at all (not etched)? Do you know the meaning of the red paint? I didn't knew it was a pattern welded steel until I have tested it with acid. The blade and the handle were quite dirty and rusty in some places (I have added the original seller's pictures). The funny thing is that I was the ONLY bidder for this kukri. I gave exactly the start price on the last seconds of the auction and was VERY surprised and happy when I have won it Well, I think I was lucky... Attached Images

1st February 2008, 09:59 PM	#7
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Tim, the handle is really made of steel - have you ever seen a rusted zinc alloy??? And there was a LOT of red rust under all this dirt on the handle (well, you may see some rust on original pictures too). What is even more interesting, the steel on the handle is well hardened: I have used very hard dentist instruments for cleaning the hundred year old dirt from the handle, and they hardly left any scratches. I don't know, if the hardening was made before or after the decoration work... I have also tested the handle with a magnet a minute ago - yes, it is steel! The yellow (brass) connection lines you may see also on some other steel handles, for example on 2 Afghani pulouars I have. Attached Images

1st February 2008, 09:23 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Tatyana your eye is very good. A handsome weapon. Seeing the before and after pictures I think Battara is right. The decorated part of the handle is a white metal, I suspect it is a zinc alloy of some kind able to take braising as there appears to be a yellow line in the handle. I also think Spiral is correct in his first opinion as to origin and age.

1st February 2008, 09:36 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thankyouy Tatyana, my memory must be at fault, perhaps i just thought of bidding! I think it was about 4 months ago? You did well. Its a very nice kukri. I suspect the red paint is of Religous or spiritual meaning, red powders, spices ar scattered widley during Hindu celebrations & sacraficial festivals I understand. one sees it commonly on sacraficial kora. I think the kukri of such subtle patterns was peraps not originaly etched, but just made in the manner of shear steel to do an efficent job, But truly i dont know. I am just speculating. Tim Lots of these do have steel handles its also usual for them to be braised . A quick magnet test by Tatyana would confirm one way or another of course. Ornate white handles are not common, embosed & engraved Steel is much commoner & of course requires greater skill to work & far more resistant to denting etc. Spiral

1st February 2008, 09:41 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	There may be degrees of hardness but skill is applyed any metal not metals to skills.

1st February 2008, 10:01 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Sure Tim anyone who did that work even if it was in a bar or soap is very skilled but Ive watched modern kami used to making brass & white metal fittings, then make them in steel, it took infinatly longer & they seemed to require much greater concentration. Different mediums work differently, carving pear wood is very different from carving greenheart for instance. Thanks for confirming its steel Tatyana. Spiral

1st February 2008, 10:05 PM	#8
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Spiral, this auction was in December 2007, I'll send you the link in the private message

1st February 2008, 10:11 PM	#9
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Spiral, I cannot send you a message at the moment - it seems that you have exceeded your limit for the incoming messages

1st February 2008, 10:17 PM	#10
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Tim, no need to apologise - the pictures may be very deceiving. The blade was polished and etched, and the handled was only cleaned with sharp tools and Flitz. There is still dirt and patina hiding in the decoration. That's why it look different on the pictures, but if you would hold it in your hand, you will see immediately that it is steel. And yes, I have made the magnet test (POSITIVE!), as I have already mentioned

1st February 2008, 10:10 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Tatyana I do beg your pardon if I am wrong. I can only form ideas through a PC. I have to add that zinc is not a denigration of the item it is in fact the opposite, a sign of quality having been used as a decorative white metal in the east thousands of years before it was smelted in western Europe. Please try the magnet test as it does look so different from the blade and I am the second to dare mention so.

1st February 2008, 10:19 PM	#14
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Tim, sorry, I have removed the red rust and cannot make its picture for you

1st February 2008, 10:21 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ask Inveterate Tim hes had loads of steel ones, in kukris whte metal grips are much rarer & less well made. Steel is best in kukris & Personly if Tatyana says a magnet sticks I belive it . Perhaps you are mistaking the chemical cleaning patina for white metal? After all nearly all grips like this are steel. I seem to recall you had a steel one with silver plate added? Spiral