Questions About a Curious Kukri

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 02:54 PM

Hello Spiral,

Intersting points, of course tired in the Japanese sword sense, would apply to laminated kukri.
What you say about users being sold as antiques does not surprise me at all, its not uncommon in the collection trade

Thanks about your comments on the Tora range, comming from one of the top kukri buffs such as yourself, I consider a high compliment indeed

Cheers Simon

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 04:58 PM

I had a big reply, too, and the computer got rid of it.....
One of the final stages in traditional Japanese sword polishing is a light acid etch. This should be done each time a sword is polished/sharpened, as it is the usual traditional manner (Japanese swords are nowhere near as homogenous as people think though). I've seen this done on television by the man who is (or was at the time; he was not young and may be dead) the cutler laureate or whatever over there, and have read of it many times. Certainly a sensitive eye can see a hardening line or lamination between fairly different alloys in polished steel(though many cannot see these things, even while they are being pointed out and are clearly visible to me), but the level of analysis traditional in Japan requires the light etch.
I find the poured on hardening method interesting; I hadn't known that, and it would seem it would produce more of a skin affect than an imersion quench, due to breifness of exposure? How much water do they pour over it. Would it be on only one side though, or how do they work that?

Ferguson · 20th March 2005, 05:35 PM

The khukuris I've etched have a similar hardening line on both sides, so I guess that they pour water on both sides.

Steve

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 05:37 PM

Hello Tom,

I know two people that are sword polishers, one is English, the other a well known top Japanese sword polisher (Togishi) and neither of them use etching as part of any stage in polishing a Japanese Sword.
However the process of Nugui is done in the last three stages of the polishing, to both polish the hada and to give the metal darker texture (this is not done on the kissaki), it is not a form of etching.
The Togishi will then do hadori to bring out the hamon in a whiteish colour after the Nugui process, it is done slightley differently in sashikomi.
The next two phases are kissaki no narume (polishing the point) and migaki (burnishing).
I have known collecters to do a light etching on a poorly polished sword to see what is in the blade.

A couple of my swords with the final effect below;

Cheers Simon

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 05:55 PM

Nice pic Steve

spiral · 20th March 2005, 05:57 PM

Great photo Steve! Thanks.

Tom, I understand that some Kami poor the water down the very edge of the blade as it points towards the ground, thus quenching both sides of the edge at the same time.

It is normaly just the belly thats hardend, the tip, spine & waist area are left softer. It is critical that the waist is left soft, as otherwise the blade is left with the potential to snape under stress.

I had never heard of Japanese etching of blades. Fascinating. Thankyou.

You do have some lovely swords Simon.

regards,
Spiral

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 06:39 PM

Cheers Spiral

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 08:34 PM

Interesting. Perhaps the man I saw was doing an unusual process for some reason, or perhaps in original manufacture it might be done prior to final polishing, to see what's going on? It was long ago, so I'm not sure....Then, as I have no idea what these Japanese words mean, further thought or comment are impossible.....my knowledge of Japanese swords is limitted to a few examples in poor condition (from which however I learned much), books, and television....most older "Western" sources are obviously off-the-wall (light slashing swords; give me a break!), and most sources are almost proprietarily secretive about polishing processes; and also I'm fairly disinterested in polishing processes; I'm more concerned with structural process; it's in my nature somehow; but it's been a while, too, since I've read anything new on the subject, and I think quite a bit more has been published in English in the last decade or two.....

Kukuris I've sharpened are soft in the tip, too, which I always thought interesting, and had attributed (wrongly) to the straightness of a partial imersion quench. So that's quite intentional.....

Conogre; I found a couple photos of old kopsh; not Egyptian though; one Palestinian, one Assyrian. When I have some money I'll send you copies to check out, as I think you might like them. Both have tang-band/I-beam type handle design. One has and I-beam type "shaft", the other a flat-looking one with grooves down both edges. The blade itself on the Palestinian (Gezer) one has two wide grooves and looks fairly light. That on the Assyrian one looks to have a wedge type section, with a narrow groove at the spine (a continuation of the one on the shaft portion); it looks somewhat heavier, but not dauntingly so. They need to put measurements in these sword books.

Movies often make swords too big; with reproducers it can go either way; some full size swords like salwar yatagan and kris sundang are regularly made now with blades around 18", which would have formerly been distinctly on the small side......

Conogre · 21st March 2005, 01:46 PM

Thank you one and all.
I personally don't feel that a sword or knife has to be of premier quality or have been owned by a Sultan, maharaja or a Datu to be worthy of discussion, often exactly the opposite, with the "poorer" blades being the ones carried by the warriors and average tribesman that won or lost the conflicts.
I have leads to follow forever in this area now and a LOT more reading to do and appreciation to build.
Again, my sincere and humble thanks.
Mike

20th March 2005, 05:37 PM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Tom, I know two people that are sword polishers, one is English, the other a well known top Japanese sword polisher (Togishi) and neither of them use etching as part of any stage in polishing a Japanese Sword. However the process of Nugui is done in the last three stages of the polishing, to both polish the hada and to give the metal darker texture (this is not done on the kissaki), it is not a form of etching. The Togishi will then do hadori to bring out the hamon in a whiteish colour after the Nugui process, it is done slightley differently in sashikomi. The next two phases are kissaki no narume (polishing the point) and migaki (burnishing). I have known collecters to do a light etching on a poorly polished sword to see what is in the blade. A couple of my swords with the final effect below; Cheers Simon Last edited by sirupate; 20th March 2005 at 06:42 PM.

20th March 2005, 08:34 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Interesting. Perhaps the man I saw was doing an unusual process for some reason, or perhaps in original manufacture it might be done prior to final polishing, to see what's going on? It was long ago, so I'm not sure....Then, as I have no idea what these Japanese words mean, further thought or comment are impossible.....my knowledge of Japanese swords is limitted to a few examples in poor condition (from which however I learned much), books, and television....most older "Western" sources are obviously off-the-wall (light slashing swords; give me a break!), and most sources are almost proprietarily secretive about polishing processes; and also I'm fairly disinterested in polishing processes; I'm more concerned with structural process; it's in my nature somehow; but it's been a while, too, since I've read anything new on the subject, and I think quite a bit more has been published in English in the last decade or two..... Kukuris I've sharpened are soft in the tip, too, which I always thought interesting, and had attributed (wrongly) to the straightness of a partial imersion quench. So that's quite intentional..... Conogre; I found a couple photos of old kopsh; not Egyptian though; one Palestinian, one Assyrian. When I have some money I'll send you copies to check out, as I think you might like them. Both have tang-band/I-beam type handle design. One has and I-beam type "shaft", the other a flat-looking one with grooves down both edges. The blade itself on the Palestinian (Gezer) one has two wide grooves and looks fairly light. That on the Assyrian one looks to have a wedge type section, with a narrow groove at the spine (a continuation of the one on the shaft portion); it looks somewhat heavier, but not dauntingly so. They need to put measurements in these sword books. Movies often make swords too big; with reproducers it can go either way; some full size swords like salwar yatagan and kris sundang are regularly made now with blades around 18", which would have formerly been distinctly on the small side...... Last edited by tom hyle; 20th March 2005 at 08:51 PM.

20th March 2005, 02:54 PM	#1
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Spiral, Intersting points, of course tired in the Japanese sword sense, would apply to laminated kukri. What you say about users being sold as antiques does not surprise me at all, its not uncommon in the collection trade Thanks about your comments on the Tora range, comming from one of the top kukri buffs such as yourself, I consider a high compliment indeed Cheers Simon

20th March 2005, 04:58 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I had a big reply, too, and the computer got rid of it..... One of the final stages in traditional Japanese sword polishing is a light acid etch. This should be done each time a sword is polished/sharpened, as it is the usual traditional manner (Japanese swords are nowhere near as homogenous as people think though). I've seen this done on television by the man who is (or was at the time; he was not young and may be dead) the cutler laureate or whatever over there, and have read of it many times. Certainly a sensitive eye can see a hardening line or lamination between fairly different alloys in polished steel(though many cannot see these things, even while they are being pointed out and are clearly visible to me), but the level of analysis traditional in Japan requires the light etch. I find the poured on hardening method interesting; I hadn't known that, and it would seem it would produce more of a skin affect than an imersion quench, due to breifness of exposure? How much water do they pour over it. Would it be on only one side though, or how do they work that?

20th March 2005, 05:35 PM	#3
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	The khukuris I've etched have a similar hardening line on both sides, so I guess that they pour water on both sides. Steve

20th March 2005, 05:55 PM	#5
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Nice pic Steve

20th March 2005, 05:57 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great photo Steve! Thanks. Tom, I understand that some Kami poor the water down the very edge of the blade as it points towards the ground, thus quenching both sides of the edge at the same time. It is normaly just the belly thats hardend, the tip, spine & waist area are left softer. It is critical that the waist is left soft, as otherwise the blade is left with the potential to snape under stress. I had never heard of Japanese etching of blades. Fascinating. Thankyou. You do have some lovely swords Simon. regards, Spiral

20th March 2005, 06:39 PM	#7
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Cheers Spiral

21st March 2005, 01:46 PM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thank you one and all. I personally don't feel that a sword or knife has to be of premier quality or have been owned by a Sultan, maharaja or a Datu to be worthy of discussion, often exactly the opposite, with the "poorer" blades being the ones carried by the warriors and average tribesman that won or lost the conflicts. I have leads to follow forever in this area now and a LOT more reading to do and appreciation to build. Again, my sincere and humble thanks. Mike