Questions About a Curious Kukri

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 01:34 PM

BTW, an interesting idea of certainty regarding the term machaira seems to have entered the market place of ideas and I'm curious to know how; in my youth I remember reading in the official type histories (for what they're worth) that, as with many ancient weapon terms, it was not known precisely what object machaira referred to, but only that it was a cutting hilt weapon (ie. sword); some said it had no thrusting point, though this seems to be a commonly developed falsehood about swords primarily for cutting (ex nihon-to) double edged leaf swords were considered to be in the running..... Perhaps this was one of the many errors of isolationistic N American Nationalist science; I don't know; certainly most of the work comming out of the steppes was sneered away and ignored as supposedly politically driven "Communist science" in USA until quite recently. I'm also curious as to whether the term was used to refer to tools (knives) in the ancient days, or only to weapons; I've only encountered it (anciently) as a weapon term, but then I've only encountered it when reading about weapons.

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 01:38 PM

Hello Tom,

From what I can gather, it may well be that the word Machaira is another word adopted in Italy etc for the Kopis, possibly due to the Greek conalisation of N.Italy.

Cheers Simon

spiral · 20th March 2005, 02:39 PM

Interesting veiws Tom, but heres some points I would like to raise for your perusal.

As to whether the term tired are appropriate, I understand your reservations but actualy the open grain found within some Japanese swords is normaly just how they were made, Etching of a japanese sword would be an act of pure vandalism . They are polished on fine stones not chemicaly etched.

As with all polishing it can reveal previously hidden blade flaws.

Kukri are tempered along the blade edge by pouring water on the hot blade.
This does actualy make a harder skin where the water is poured.
This can be worn, sharpend, or polished {read sanded!} off to revel the unhardend steel.

Hence my use of the term tired.

Many 1950sapparently "village sirupates" have actuly started out with fairly deep blades & have been used/sharpend untill they have the sirupate shape, this can usualy been noticed by the deeper belly that the scabard has, compared to the worn blade.

These worn out kukri are then often sold to western dealers as authentic antique kukri. {bieng English , I regard antiques as a minimum of 100 years old myself.}

I agree Stamped may not have been the best word, but some where between stamped & chiseled would perhaps be most descriptive, looking at the marks made? Engraved perhaps?

Thanks Simon, I am chuffed with this one. It is realy good to see your range developing in the way they have.

cheers,
Spiral

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 02:54 PM

Hello Spiral,

Intersting points, of course tired in the Japanese sword sense, would apply to laminated kukri.
What you say about users being sold as antiques does not surprise me at all, its not uncommon in the collection trade

Thanks about your comments on the Tora range, comming from one of the top kukri buffs such as yourself, I consider a high compliment indeed

Cheers Simon

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 04:58 PM

I had a big reply, too, and the computer got rid of it.....
One of the final stages in traditional Japanese sword polishing is a light acid etch. This should be done each time a sword is polished/sharpened, as it is the usual traditional manner (Japanese swords are nowhere near as homogenous as people think though). I've seen this done on television by the man who is (or was at the time; he was not young and may be dead) the cutler laureate or whatever over there, and have read of it many times. Certainly a sensitive eye can see a hardening line or lamination between fairly different alloys in polished steel(though many cannot see these things, even while they are being pointed out and are clearly visible to me), but the level of analysis traditional in Japan requires the light etch.
I find the poured on hardening method interesting; I hadn't known that, and it would seem it would produce more of a skin affect than an imersion quench, due to breifness of exposure? How much water do they pour over it. Would it be on only one side though, or how do they work that?

Ferguson · 20th March 2005, 05:35 PM

The khukuris I've etched have a similar hardening line on both sides, so I guess that they pour water on both sides.

Steve

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 05:37 PM

Hello Tom,

I know two people that are sword polishers, one is English, the other a well known top Japanese sword polisher (Togishi) and neither of them use etching as part of any stage in polishing a Japanese Sword.
However the process of Nugui is done in the last three stages of the polishing, to both polish the hada and to give the metal darker texture (this is not done on the kissaki), it is not a form of etching.
The Togishi will then do hadori to bring out the hamon in a whiteish colour after the Nugui process, it is done slightley differently in sashikomi.
The next two phases are kissaki no narume (polishing the point) and migaki (burnishing).
I have known collecters to do a light etching on a poorly polished sword to see what is in the blade.

A couple of my swords with the final effect below;

Cheers Simon

sirupate · 20th March 2005, 05:55 PM

Nice pic Steve

spiral · 20th March 2005, 05:57 PM

Great photo Steve! Thanks.

Tom, I understand that some Kami poor the water down the very edge of the blade as it points towards the ground, thus quenching both sides of the edge at the same time.

It is normaly just the belly thats hardend, the tip, spine & waist area are left softer. It is critical that the waist is left soft, as otherwise the blade is left with the potential to snape under stress.

I had never heard of Japanese etching of blades. Fascinating. Thankyou.

You do have some lovely swords Simon.

regards,
Spiral

20th March 2005, 05:37 PM	#7
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Tom, I know two people that are sword polishers, one is English, the other a well known top Japanese sword polisher (Togishi) and neither of them use etching as part of any stage in polishing a Japanese Sword. However the process of Nugui is done in the last three stages of the polishing, to both polish the hada and to give the metal darker texture (this is not done on the kissaki), it is not a form of etching. The Togishi will then do hadori to bring out the hamon in a whiteish colour after the Nugui process, it is done slightley differently in sashikomi. The next two phases are kissaki no narume (polishing the point) and migaki (burnishing). I have known collecters to do a light etching on a poorly polished sword to see what is in the blade. A couple of my swords with the final effect below; Cheers Simon Last edited by sirupate; 20th March 2005 at 06:42 PM.

20th March 2005, 01:34 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, an interesting idea of certainty regarding the term machaira seems to have entered the market place of ideas and I'm curious to know how; in my youth I remember reading in the official type histories (for what they're worth) that, as with many ancient weapon terms, it was not known precisely what object machaira referred to, but only that it was a cutting hilt weapon (ie. sword); some said it had no thrusting point, though this seems to be a commonly developed falsehood about swords primarily for cutting (ex nihon-to) double edged leaf swords were considered to be in the running..... Perhaps this was one of the many errors of isolationistic N American Nationalist science; I don't know; certainly most of the work comming out of the steppes was sneered away and ignored as supposedly politically driven "Communist science" in USA until quite recently. I'm also curious as to whether the term was used to refer to tools (knives) in the ancient days, or only to weapons; I've only encountered it (anciently) as a weapon term, but then I've only encountered it when reading about weapons.

20th March 2005, 01:38 PM	#2
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Tom, From what I can gather, it may well be that the word Machaira is another word adopted in Italy etc for the Kopis, possibly due to the Greek conalisation of N.Italy. Cheers Simon

20th March 2005, 02:39 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Interesting veiws Tom, but heres some points I would like to raise for your perusal. As to whether the term tired are appropriate, I understand your reservations but actualy the open grain found within some Japanese swords is normaly just how they were made, Etching of a japanese sword would be an act of pure vandalism . They are polished on fine stones not chemicaly etched. As with all polishing it can reveal previously hidden blade flaws. Kukri are tempered along the blade edge by pouring water on the hot blade. This does actualy make a harder skin where the water is poured. This can be worn, sharpend, or polished {read sanded!} off to revel the unhardend steel. Hence my use of the term tired. Many 1950sapparently "village sirupates" have actuly started out with fairly deep blades & have been used/sharpend untill they have the sirupate shape, this can usualy been noticed by the deeper belly that the scabard has, compared to the worn blade. These worn out kukri are then often sold to western dealers as authentic antique kukri. {bieng English , I regard antiques as a minimum of 100 years old myself.} I agree Stamped may not have been the best word, but some where between stamped & chiseled would perhaps be most descriptive, looking at the marks made? Engraved perhaps? Thanks Simon, I am chuffed with this one. It is realy good to see your range developing in the way they have. cheers, Spiral

20th March 2005, 02:54 PM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hello Spiral, Intersting points, of course tired in the Japanese sword sense, would apply to laminated kukri. What you say about users being sold as antiques does not surprise me at all, its not uncommon in the collection trade Thanks about your comments on the Tora range, comming from one of the top kukri buffs such as yourself, I consider a high compliment indeed Cheers Simon

20th March 2005, 04:58 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I had a big reply, too, and the computer got rid of it..... One of the final stages in traditional Japanese sword polishing is a light acid etch. This should be done each time a sword is polished/sharpened, as it is the usual traditional manner (Japanese swords are nowhere near as homogenous as people think though). I've seen this done on television by the man who is (or was at the time; he was not young and may be dead) the cutler laureate or whatever over there, and have read of it many times. Certainly a sensitive eye can see a hardening line or lamination between fairly different alloys in polished steel(though many cannot see these things, even while they are being pointed out and are clearly visible to me), but the level of analysis traditional in Japan requires the light etch. I find the poured on hardening method interesting; I hadn't known that, and it would seem it would produce more of a skin affect than an imersion quench, due to breifness of exposure? How much water do they pour over it. Would it be on only one side though, or how do they work that?

20th March 2005, 05:35 PM	#6
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	The khukuris I've etched have a similar hardening line on both sides, so I guess that they pour water on both sides. Steve

20th March 2005, 05:55 PM	#8
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Nice pic Steve

20th March 2005, 05:57 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great photo Steve! Thanks. Tom, I understand that some Kami poor the water down the very edge of the blade as it points towards the ground, thus quenching both sides of the edge at the same time. It is normaly just the belly thats hardend, the tip, spine & waist area are left softer. It is critical that the waist is left soft, as otherwise the blade is left with the potential to snape under stress. I had never heard of Japanese etching of blades. Fascinating. Thankyou. You do have some lovely swords Simon. regards, Spiral