Titanium Keris

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2008, 08:11 PM

As Richard has advised, titanium is not rare, but it does not come in nice convenient little lumps. It is really not surprising that titanium was found in the analyses of old Javanese keris that were carried out in Jogja a few years back, however, the conclusions that were drawn from these analyses by people with no knowledge of metallurgy and huge imaginations, were ludicrous.

I suspect that if ever we get an analysis of pamor munggul we will find that it is nickelous material. The little bulb of pamor could have been formed during forging by the nickel melting and running to fill a void in the ferric material.

It is said that pamor munggul is very hard and cannot be easily filed, but I fail to understand how anybody would know this:- pamor munggul adds much value to a keris, who in his right mind is going to try to reduce that value with a file? I suspect we are looking at urban legend here.

Alam Shah · 28th January 2008, 10:32 PM

Thanks guys...

How about of "simbang kurung" material? I know without chemical testing one cannot be sure... but in your experience what could be the material?

[ example ]

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2008, 10:58 PM

Personally, I would not guess at this without at least putting it under magnification. I do not mean pics, I mean in the hand + jeweller's loupe.

Richard Furrer · 29th January 2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is said that pamor munggul is very hard and cannot be easily filed, but I fail to understand how anybody would know this:- pamor munggul adds much value to a keris, who in his right mind is going to try to reduce that value with a file? I suspect we are looking at urban legend here.

Hello,
Pure nickel will not go liquid and run at the temps used for forge-welding, but a high carbon material containing nickel may.
What I find interesting, being ignorant of many things about the keris, is that the effect we are discussing is round...if it were a piece in the steel or between layers of steel then it should be elongated like the rest of the material in the blade.
I have had welding flaws which look bulbous, but when forged out they are long and stretched.

Whatever this thing is, it happens with little or no deformation so it is either done close to the end of forging or with little forging out of the material....in my opinion.

If its that hard it may be a slag bubble or something like it...may not be steel or metal at all.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2008, 02:19 AM

When I suggested melting what I had in mind was that there could be a void adjacent to a thicker piece of pamor material and for some reason or other there was sufficient difference in the hardness of the pamor material and the ferric material that allowed the pamor material to fill the void.From memory I think nickel melts at about 1455C and iron at about 1535C. Seems reasonable to me that it would be possible for a thick, soft piece of nickel to work its way into a slightly harder piece of iron that had a little hole in it.This is a pretty rare effect we're talking about, I reckon I've only seen it maybe 4 or 5 times, and I've handled thousands, more likely tens of thousands, of blades. I was not thinking in terms of sloshy liquid running around in the middle of the blade.In any case, whatever the stuff is, it needs an analysis to determine, and all our hypotheticals are really just a waste of time.

Its not that this pamor occurs with no deformation, it is buried in the blade when the blade is new, but it reveals itself as time passes and the blade erodes through cleaning.Since it does not erode as ferric material does, its obviously not that.

28th January 2008, 10:32 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Thanks guys... How about of "simbang kurung" material? I know without chemical testing one cannot be sure... but in your experience what could be the material? [ example ] Last edited by Alam Shah; 29th January 2008 at 04:17 AM. Reason: mod link

28th January 2008, 08:11 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	As Richard has advised, titanium is not rare, but it does not come in nice convenient little lumps. It is really not surprising that titanium was found in the analyses of old Javanese keris that were carried out in Jogja a few years back, however, the conclusions that were drawn from these analyses by people with no knowledge of metallurgy and huge imaginations, were ludicrous. I suspect that if ever we get an analysis of pamor munggul we will find that it is nickelous material. The little bulb of pamor could have been formed during forging by the nickel melting and running to fill a void in the ferric material. It is said that pamor munggul is very hard and cannot be easily filed, but I fail to understand how anybody would know this:- pamor munggul adds much value to a keris, who in his right mind is going to try to reduce that value with a file? I suspect we are looking at urban legend here.

28th January 2008, 10:58 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	Personally, I would not guess at this without at least putting it under magnification. I do not mean pics, I mean in the hand + jeweller's loupe.

29th January 2008, 02:19 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	When I suggested melting what I had in mind was that there could be a void adjacent to a thicker piece of pamor material and for some reason or other there was sufficient difference in the hardness of the pamor material and the ferric material that allowed the pamor material to fill the void.From memory I think nickel melts at about 1455C and iron at about 1535C. Seems reasonable to me that it would be possible for a thick, soft piece of nickel to work its way into a slightly harder piece of iron that had a little hole in it.This is a pretty rare effect we're talking about, I reckon I've only seen it maybe 4 or 5 times, and I've handled thousands, more likely tens of thousands, of blades. I was not thinking in terms of sloshy liquid running around in the middle of the blade.In any case, whatever the stuff is, it needs an analysis to determine, and all our hypotheticals are really just a waste of time. Its not that this pamor occurs with no deformation, it is buried in the blade when the blade is new, but it reveals itself as time passes and the blade erodes through cleaning.Since it does not erode as ferric material does, its obviously not that.