How many Kris's are made of Indian steel?

A. G. Maisey · 26th January 2008, 05:16 AM

That's interesting, Pak Boedhi. I've got to get to Jakarta again some day. Haven't been there for years.

Anyway--- let's assume that it was indeed a crucible that had iron deposits in it, that does not prove iron production in Jawa. It indicates that there may have been iron production in Jawa.

A few years back Dietrich Drescher did a smelt of sand (I think) from somewhere in the south-west of Jawa (again "I think"---I'm pretty vague on the details of this), and demonstrated conclusively that the possibility was there for Jawa to produce iron. So, yes, we know that Jawa could have produced iron, but to the best of my knowledge we do not yet know if in fact iron was produced in Jawa. I think we'd probably need some archaeological evidence to demonstrate this.

There is no doubt that iron was produced in maritime SE Asia outside of Jawa, so it is probably reasonable to assume that it was also produced in Jawa, but we do not yet have the proof, at least as far as I know.

On a number of occasions, and in a number of places, I have put forward the proposition that early pamor was the result of necessity in mixing irons of differing qualities to produce workable material, and to extend the quantity of high grade material that was available. A working smith is able by simple tests to identify various qualities in material. I wrote fairly comprehensively on this in an another thread on this forum, but I forget where it is to be found. It can probably be found with a search if you're interested.

As you say, iron used in Jawa would have come from differing sources. There is a particular pamor that has the external appearance of wootz. I think it might be possible that this particular pamor material is wootz of a quality that was able to be used in an unadulterated form.In the case of this material we might be able to assume that it is of Indian origin, but , as you say, once you start to mix material from one source, with material from another its probably impossible to identify origins.

Jawa may have imported iron, but it also exported iron products to the rest of maritime SE Asia, and to as far away as South India. The Book of Duarte Barbosa (about 1518) makes interesting reading. Writing about the Javanese trading ships that came to Malaka:- "---In these ships the Jaos (Javanese) bring hither great store of rice, beef, sheep, swine, deer, salt meat, fowls, garlic, and onions, and also bring for sale many weapons , spears, daggers, short swords all finely worked and damascened on fine steel--------".

So it was not just a matter of obtaining sufficient iron to satisfy local needs, but obtaining sufficient iron to satisfy a manufacturing industry that exported weapons to the rest of SE Asia, and beyond.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2008, 01:47 PM

Maybe the Javanese had iron, but not sufficient, so they imported iron/steel, made weapons and other things for export.

A. G. Maisey · 26th January 2008, 08:22 PM

No maybe about it, Jens. There were imports of iron, and there were exports of manufactured iron goods.

Ki Jayamalelo · 2nd February 2008, 07:00 PM

Hello Kerislovers,

yes we have done smelting experiments with iron sand from Cilacap. It was done with help of Empu Subandi and his crew and Pande Mudra in Bali. We startet already 1996 and also in Bali with local ironsand from Tabanan and the last time with Mas Boedhi (Hello Mas Boedhi !!!). We used electric blower then the tradional bellows. There was almost no difference in the result. The range of iron or better I should say pamor was between 5 and 10 %. Altogether it was about 16 kg of iron sponge. What turns out was not only iron but laminated pamor veins with more or less silvery shine. In my opinion it looks close to Majapahit kerisses.

My last smelting project was iron ore of the pitmine in Soroako. PT INCO has given me 200 kg of ore which i took it to Tanah Toraja. The result was 1,6 kg of pamor.

Then we have made several kerisses including meteoric iron, 100 % Nickel, 10 % Nickel, pamor from our own smelt of Cilacap, Bali and last from Soroako.

Exept with blades of 100 % Nickel there was not much difference in the color of the pamor lines.

I think some day we will have evidences for local iron smelting in Java but as I kow there was no resaerch about this part of th history of technik.

There are hints of smetling in Westjava and near Candi Belahan. This was told to me by an archaelogist of the National Museum. The early javanese with a culture building Candis like Borobudur and Prambanan had a big need for steel chisels. As we also know there was never a pure bronze age but bronze was always mixed with iron and the immigrants of Java brought the knowledge of iron with them.

We should not forget the ironsand deposits in Java are millions of tons almost the whole southcoast. For sure there was imported iron but we also should not forget Tom Harrsons excavation in Kuching with 40000 tons of ironslag and the excavation in the vicinity of the lake Matano in Luwu. You may read more in David Bulbecks book The Land of Iron (an Internet edition is available). For import of iron the martime archaelogy showing more and more wrecks with loads of iron. www.maritimeasia.ws/topic/iron.html

Wootz and Java goes to far for me, because we could not say because of crucibles with remaining iron slag are used to make wootz steel. So far I remember in the Geological Museum in Bandung is also a small crucible with Iron slag. I have tried to smelt wootz too in Solo but unfortunatly the wootzcake ? has been lost, but the surface structure remembered on wootz. The transver of knowledge from India is possible but I think, or let me say the special treatment of wootz is not so easy. I preparing another trip to Indonesia but if still time I will post some pictures.

Dietrich Drescher
Ki Jayamalelo

2nd February 2008, 07:00 PM	#4
Ki Jayamalelo Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 18	Hello Kerislovers, yes we have done smelting experiments with iron sand from Cilacap. It was done with help of Empu Subandi and his crew and Pande Mudra in Bali. We startet already 1996 and also in Bali with local ironsand from Tabanan and the last time with Mas Boedhi (Hello Mas Boedhi !!!). We used electric blower then the tradional bellows. There was almost no difference in the result. The range of iron or better I should say pamor was between 5 and 10 %. Altogether it was about 16 kg of iron sponge. What turns out was not only iron but laminated pamor veins with more or less silvery shine. In my opinion it looks close to Majapahit kerisses. My last smelting project was iron ore of the pitmine in Soroako. PT INCO has given me 200 kg of ore which i took it to Tanah Toraja. The result was 1,6 kg of pamor. Then we have made several kerisses including meteoric iron, 100 % Nickel, 10 % Nickel, pamor from our own smelt of Cilacap, Bali and last from Soroako. Exept with blades of 100 % Nickel there was not much difference in the color of the pamor lines. I think some day we will have evidences for local iron smelting in Java but as I kow there was no resaerch about this part of th history of technik. There are hints of smetling in Westjava and near Candi Belahan. This was told to me by an archaelogist of the National Museum. The early javanese with a culture building Candis like Borobudur and Prambanan had a big need for steel chisels. As we also know there was never a pure bronze age but bronze was always mixed with iron and the immigrants of Java brought the knowledge of iron with them. We should not forget the ironsand deposits in Java are millions of tons almost the whole southcoast. For sure there was imported iron but we also should not forget Tom Harrsons excavation in Kuching with 40000 tons of ironslag and the excavation in the vicinity of the lake Matano in Luwu. You may read more in David Bulbecks book The Land of Iron (an Internet edition is available). For import of iron the martime archaelogy showing more and more wrecks with loads of iron. www.maritimeasia.ws/topic/iron.html Wootz and Java goes to far for me, because we could not say because of crucibles with remaining iron slag are used to make wootz steel. So far I remember in the Geological Museum in Bandung is also a small crucible with Iron slag. I have tried to smelt wootz too in Solo but unfortunatly the wootzcake ? has been lost, but the surface structure remembered on wootz. The transver of knowledge from India is possible but I think, or let me say the special treatment of wootz is not so easy. I preparing another trip to Indonesia but if still time I will post some pictures. Dietrich Drescher Ki Jayamalelo Last edited by Ki Jayamalelo; 2nd February 2008 at 07:30 PM.

26th January 2008, 05:16 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	That's interesting, Pak Boedhi. I've got to get to Jakarta again some day. Haven't been there for years. Anyway--- let's assume that it was indeed a crucible that had iron deposits in it, that does not prove iron production in Jawa. It indicates that there may have been iron production in Jawa. A few years back Dietrich Drescher did a smelt of sand (I think) from somewhere in the south-west of Jawa (again "I think"---I'm pretty vague on the details of this), and demonstrated conclusively that the possibility was there for Jawa to produce iron. So, yes, we know that Jawa could have produced iron, but to the best of my knowledge we do not yet know if in fact iron was produced in Jawa. I think we'd probably need some archaeological evidence to demonstrate this. There is no doubt that iron was produced in maritime SE Asia outside of Jawa, so it is probably reasonable to assume that it was also produced in Jawa, but we do not yet have the proof, at least as far as I know. On a number of occasions, and in a number of places, I have put forward the proposition that early pamor was the result of necessity in mixing irons of differing qualities to produce workable material, and to extend the quantity of high grade material that was available. A working smith is able by simple tests to identify various qualities in material. I wrote fairly comprehensively on this in an another thread on this forum, but I forget where it is to be found. It can probably be found with a search if you're interested. As you say, iron used in Jawa would have come from differing sources. There is a particular pamor that has the external appearance of wootz. I think it might be possible that this particular pamor material is wootz of a quality that was able to be used in an unadulterated form.In the case of this material we might be able to assume that it is of Indian origin, but , as you say, once you start to mix material from one source, with material from another its probably impossible to identify origins. Jawa may have imported iron, but it also exported iron products to the rest of maritime SE Asia, and to as far away as South India. The Book of Duarte Barbosa (about 1518) makes interesting reading. Writing about the Javanese trading ships that came to Malaka:- "---In these ships the Jaos (Javanese) bring hither great store of rice, beef, sheep, swine, deer, salt meat, fowls, garlic, and onions, and also bring for sale many weapons , spears, daggers, short swords all finely worked and damascened on fine steel--------". So it was not just a matter of obtaining sufficient iron to satisfy local needs, but obtaining sufficient iron to satisfy a manufacturing industry that exported weapons to the rest of SE Asia, and beyond.

26th January 2008, 01:47 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Maybe the Javanese had iron, but not sufficient, so they imported iron/steel, made weapons and other things for export.

26th January 2008, 08:22 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	No maybe about it, Jens. There were imports of iron, and there were exports of manufactured iron goods.