Occupational Health and Safety

Gavin Nugent · 23rd January 2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Department of Justice?

Within the Commonwealth system of government?

Possibly you mean the Attorney-General's Department, Gavin?

Some states have a Department of Justice, but on the commonwealth level the responsibilities for law and justice are handled by the Attorney-General's Department.

Attorney-General's Department is absolutely correct Alan or Dept of Justice, one and the same, any google search will show this relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Perhaps you could explain to me why it would be so desirable for us to have uniform weapons legislation here in Australia. I'm probably little bit slow in my understanding of what the benefits of such legislation might be for collectors and students of weaponry, and for sporting shooters and other users of weapons.

Why would collectors not want the best of all state regulations under the one "Umbrella" so to speak?

Example; In Qld, to import or own a double edged knife under 40cms in length (I am sure some Kris will fit this description) is of no concern to governing bodies, but other states need federal permission to import and a special license to own. Again in Victoria you can own a sword cane on license, sure I can own it QLD but I need a Special license, federal permission to import if from overseas and once I get it here I have to have it rendered inert (Have the timber sheath filled) by a approved Armourer. I know I would like the best solutions to these problems above to make collecting more enjoyable under state laws, which would also make dealing within different states much easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What would be proposed as the normative model?

The moderate legislation of Tasmania, or the draconian laws of New South Wales and Victoria?

Could we expect to see the governments and bureaucracies of New South Wales and Victoria accept the more relaxed regulation of Tasmania ? Could we expect to see these two states relax their grip on the prohibitions that they have taken 50 or more years to gain?

I rather think not.

In a perfect world, of course collectors would want the best of all current State laws (And Territories too Alan), lets not dismiss it and work towards it as a collective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In the event of any uniformity of legislation occurring in Australia in respect of weapons legislation, what would happen would be the adoption by all states of a uniform draconian code which reflected the most stringent restrictions present in all individual states.

In my opinion uniform legislation is the last thing we want.

Sure we can all lay down Alan, it is typical of the Australian populace, no one wants to try. We don't voice our concerns as avid collectors in the right direction, we all just throw our voices to the wind and hope someone will answer our words... we continue to Suck eggs and stay complacent instead of taking an interest in these matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It would be far more sensible for interested parties to work on a state by state basis to try to bring some moderation and common sense to our weapons legislation. However, in the current political climate probably the best we can hope for is that we do not lose any of the "privileges" which we presently have.

Never forget:- the things that might be considered as "rights" in some other countries are written into law as PRIVILEGES in Australia.

Never a truer sentence spoken above Alan, but does anyone really want to make a difference to these "PRIVILEGES", I mean really want to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Incidentally, Australia has six states, not seven. The Northern Territory is a territory, as the name suggests, and so is the Australian Capital Territory; there's another little territory too, that most people tend to overlook:- Jervis Bay Territory.

I'll look into the Hutt river province too and see how their laws stand with regards to these issues, maybe I can buy a knighthood and set up camp in WA and forget the rest of this mumbo jumbo that is Australian law.

On a final note, with regards to mentioning the "economy", grab a copy of "Deer Hunting With Jesus". It is a great read and a great laugh too, it is about this false ecenomy that we all live in, no matter where we live.

VANDOO · 23rd January 2008, 06:07 PM

SOCIETYS TWO GROUPS

1. THOSE WHO ARE LAW ABIDING ARE NOT A DANGER TO SOCIETY AND DO AND WILL OBEY ITS LAWS.
2.THOSE WHO WILL BREAK ALL LAWS AND BECOME CRIMINALS WHO PREY ON THE SOCIETY AND CONTRIBUTE NOTHING GOOD AND DO NOT AND WILL NOT OBEY ANY LAWS OLD OR NEW.

SO LETS MAKE NEW LAWS THAT TAKE ALL MEANS OF PROTECTING THEMSELVES AWAY FROM GROUP ONE. THAT WILL ALSO AUTOMATICALLY PLACE THOSE WHO DO NOT COMPLY INTO GROUP 2 STATUS EVEN IF THEY ARE GOOD CITIZENS.

GROUP TWO WILL THEN HAVE FREE REGIN TO COMMIT ANY CRIMES THEY PLEASE ON GROUP ONE WITHOUT DANGER TO THEMSELVES. IF A PERSON FROM GROUP ONE HAS BROKEN THE LAW AND KEPT THE MEANS TO SUCCESFULLY PROTECT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCYS WILL MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF HIM TREATING HIM EVEN WORSE THAN THEY WOULD TREAT A CRIMINAL WITH MANY CRIMES TO HIS CREDIT. THIS IN TURN WILL SEND THE MESSAGE TO THE GOOD WORKING PEOPLE IN GROUP ONE THAT IT IS BETTER TO LET THE CRIMINALS DO AS THEY WISH WITH THEM AND THEIR FAMILYS THAN TO MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

GROUP TWO IN THE MEANTIME ARE JUST MISUNDERSTOOD AND HAVE HAD A ROUGH CHILDHOOD OR BEEN ABUSED IN SOME WAY SO SHOULD BE SHOWN ALL CONSIDERATION SO LAWS SHOULD BE ENACTED TO GIVE THEM SPECIAL CONSIDERATION AND MANY CHANCES TO REFORM IN SOCIETY ON THEIR OWN.

ALL THESE THINGS HAVE ACTUALLY HAPPENED ALREADY IN THE USA IN CERTAN PLACES WHERE SUCH LAWS HAVE BEEN INACTED. SO FAR THE RIGHT TO OWN ARMS STILL EXHISTS IN MOST OF THE COUNTRY DESPITE MANY ATTEMPTS TO DO AWAY WITH IT. I AM FOR REMOVING THE CRIMINALS FROM THE SOCIETY, NOT REMOVING A MEANS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THE GOOD PEOPLE.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd January 2008, 10:08 PM

Gavin, let me get this on record:- I have actively opposed restrictive arms legislation in NSW since the 1950's.

I have been a hunter and competitive target shooter with both rifle and pistol since I was a child, and I am very familiar with the efforts that have been made by NSW state governments to restrict use and ownership of firearms.Over recent years these governmental efforts have been extended to edged implements, and I have similarly been active in opposing restrictive legislation in respect of knives & etc.

Add to this a 40 year career in government bureaucracies as an internal auditor, and close to 20 years of providing consultancy services to bureaucrats in respect of internal audit and risk management.

Now factor in a few years of sitting on a government committee.

I think I can claim to have an adequate understanding of the way in which government administration functions.

To attain uniformity across the states in any legislation, it would first be necessary for all states to agree to transfer their powers relevant to the matter under consideration, to the Commonwealth. Let us assume that a miracle occurred and the states really did agree to transfer their powers in respect of weapons to the Commonwealth. It would then become the responsibility of the Attorney-General's department to incorporate into Commonwealth law the laws which had previously been the responsibility of the states.

The way in which this would be achieved would be by ensuring that all clauses in existing state legislations were incorporated into the new Commonwealth legislation. No restrictions would be lost, but NSW would gain the restrictions of all other states.

Now, what do you think that would do to Tasmania?

Just to clarify a point, in spite of what Dr. Google may tell you, there is no "Department of Justice" within the Australian Commonwealth system. Matters concerning justice and law are the responsibility of the Attorney-General's Department, which is not known as the "Department of Justice".

At the present time in Australia we have a Labor government as our national government, and all states also have Labor governments.

In US terms, the Labor Party in Australia is essentially a party of democrats . Politically they are aligned with the green movement and in opposition to the domination of capital.I think we are all very well aware of the philosophies of both democrats and greens in respect of the private ownership of weapons. The Australian Labor party holds exactly these same philosophies.

It is all very well to talk about what collectors of weaponry may want, and lets not forget firearms owners, but the cold hard facts are that the tide of population density has made it impossible for any administration to allow the freedoms which earlier ages took for granted. This applies not only in the matter of weaponry, but in other things as well. In order to manage our societies with their ever increasing populations, to keep those societies calm and economically viable, it is necessary to impose restrictions upon the society as a whole that will disadvantage minority groups within the society.

Collectors of edged weapons are most definitely a minority group.

Like it or not, our societies are managed by bureaucrats who for the most part work in accord with the directives of the politicians whom we elected to office.

The only way that you can get a politician to move in either one direction, or another, is to clearly demonstrate political advantage.

If collectors of edged weapons in Australia, or anywhere else for that matter, want to get legislation changed, they need to demonstrate political advantage for the desired change. If political advantage cannot be demonstrated then those collectors need to work within the system to find ways that will give the politicians what they want, without seriously inconveniencing the collectors. To dream that we can get existing legislation softened is indeed a dream. No politician would run the risk of the public relations disaster that would ensue in the event of injury or death being able to be associated with the removal of some restriction or other.

What we have now, we will always have. All we can do is try to influence future legislation, and we can do that by maintaining a very close watch on the review of existing legislation and attempting to ensure that whatever new restrictions may be imposed, they are restrictions that we can live with. This is best achieved on an organisational basis by collector's societies, shooter's societies, and so forth making approaches to the relevant ministers, and by employing lobbiests.On a grassroots level a letter writing campaign can also be effective:- it is very difficult for any politician to ignore a letter, especially when directed through a local member of parliament. Every politician knows that a letter from one person represents ten people who are unhappy.

The ultimate protection for any minority group is to have a dedicated member elected to the Upper House. In NSW , firearms owners and users have achieved this and now have not one, but two senators who are members of The Shooters Party , sitting in the Upper House.

In order for us to achieve the best possible outcomes from any future legislation that could impact upon our interests, it is necessary to stop dreaming of what we might like to have, and face the realities of the political world in which we live. To survive in this political world we need to understand how this world functions, and we need to use the weapons of this world to our own advantage. These weapons are a clear understanding of the legislation that sets the rules, and a clear understanding of how we can influence the people who make the rules.

I strongly recommend a reading of "The Prince", for those of you who have not yet read it. Combined with Sun Tzu it will teach you all you need to know about achieving any objective.

Barry, the only reason that you still have the right to firearms ownership in the USA is because many years ago the NRA realised that in order to protect the rights enshrined in your Constitution they needed to become political. If you had not had NRA political activity do you think that you would still enjoy the right to own firearms?

As for the criminal element, it is a fact that the more dense a population becomes, the more likely it is for criminal activity within that population to increase. It is also a fact that as the gap between the wealthiest in any population, and the poorest in any population gets wider, the criminal activity in that population will increase. What is the population of the USA? What percentage of the national wealth is held by the top two percent of that population? What percentage of wealth is held by the bottom ten percent of the population? Consider the answers to these questions and I think that perhaps you will be able to see the future.

Gavin Nugent · 24th January 2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gavin, let me get this on record:- I have actively opposed restrictive arms legislation in NSW since the 1950's.

I have been a hunter and competitive target shooter with both rifle and pistol since I was a child, and I am very familiar with the efforts that have been made by NSW state governments to restrict use and ownership of firearms.Over recent years these governmental efforts have been extended to edged implements, and I have similarly been active in opposing restrictive legislation in respect of knives & etc.

Add to this a 40 year career in government bureaucracies as an internal auditor, and close to 20 years of providing consultancy services to bureaucrats in respect of internal audit and risk management.

Now factor in a few years of sitting on a government committee.

I think I can claim to have an adequate understanding of the way in which government administration functions.

Outstanding writings Alan, you certainly know ducks from emus and are a very well informed gentleman

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Just to clarify a point, in spite of what Dr. Google may tell you, there is no "Department of Justice" within the Australian Commonwealth system. Matters concerning justice and law are the responsibility of the Attorney-General's Department, which is not known as the "Department of Justice".

I understand what you are saying with regards to the attorney general's office and the dept of Justice reference but why do the majority of states call it the dept of Justice, some call it the dept of Justice and attorney generals office and another call it the attorney generals office, all these searches I did after you mentioned this are government generated websites referring to these departments as departments of Justice? is this the new national norm for this deptarment?

regards

Gavin

PS I have sent you a PM with further content.

kahnjar1 · 24th January 2008, 05:35 AM

To you Australian neighbours, take a look at the SENSIBLE approach of our regulations here in New Zealand. Check GOOGLE for our Arms Regulations. We have a VERY STRONG lobby group in COLFO (Coalition of Licenced Firearms Owners), and strong government representation from individual shooting and collecting organisations within the country. Also if you have access to your local politician, it would do no harm to establish his/her thinking on weapons ownership and place your vote accordingly. There are plenty of ways to "encourage" the government of the day!
If you do not belong to a collecting/arms group, then join one NOW as it is not too late YET for you to get some action underway! There is strength in numbers!!
The above in NZ also applies to edged weapons and their ownership and importation.
Stuart

A. G. Maisey · 24th January 2008, 06:46 AM

Yes Stuart, we are aware of the more relaxed attitude to firearms in New Zealand. It seems to approach the attitude that prevailed in Australia around 50 years ago , when the population of Australia was around the 9 million mark.

The population of New Zealand today is somewhere around 4 million people, which is a little less than the population of the city of Sydney; the population of Australia today is around 21 million people. Additionally, there is considerable difference in the way in which the administration of New Zealand is structured, as compared with the structure of the Australian administration.

The demographic has different characteristics, and the history of settlement, which is linked to the history of firearms ownership, is also different.

There are a number of reasons why New Zealand is able to enjoy a less restrictive firearms regime.

However, possibly the most important reason is that because New Zealand was not subjected to the same explosive population mix, combined with greater population density, that Australia has experienced, there has not been the pressure from the wider community for arms control that has occurred in Australia. This has allowed the interested parties in New Zealand a period of grace, if you will, and realising that it would not be long before they also faced restrictions , political action was implemented early. The Australian experience showed quite clearly what was ahead if action was not taken.

Your recommendations to Gavin are completely correct. The whole issue of ownership of any type of arms is now a political matter, and the only way it can be addressed is by political means.

Legislation of any type normally reflects the wishes of the wider community, so if anti-weapons legislation is introduced, it is because the wider community sees this as desirable. As well as demonstrating political positives to politicians for not passing restrictive legislation, it is probably advisable to maintain a consistent public relations program to attempt to induce a better understanding of weaponry and those who use and collect it, amongst the general public.

Gavin, in our earlier exchange we were not discussing state structures, but Commonwealth structures:- uniform legislation across states dictates that such legislation must be Commonwealth legislation.
Each state, and the Commonwealth, has the right and the obligation to affix titles to the departments for which its individual ministers are responsible.
There is no obligation to maintain any sort of uniformity in the way in which each administration affixes such titles.
At a state level some states do have a Department of Justice, however, the Commonwealth of Australia does not have a Department of Justice, it has an Attorney-General's Department, which is responsible for justice.

kahnjar1 · 25th January 2008, 02:13 AM

Yes I agree that the Australian system of Federal Govt does not make things easy, but............... surely if some States (Tas) have sensible laws, then pressure MUST be able to be brought to bear thru your local MPs. Also there MUST BE sitting MPs who have an interest in collecting weapons. These could be lobbied to at least air the issue at Govt level !. MPs do not like to risk not being re-elected. I agree with your comment that EDUCATION not REGULATION should take a leading position, but IT WON'T DO IT WITHOUT YOUR HELP, and by "your" I mean each and every collector. We have fought long and hard for reasonable laws here. It does not come to those who sit around and wait for others to act. You just end up with stupid laws (like Canada) or rediculous ones like UK.
REMEMBER there is strength in numbers. If there is not a club/association near you then start one!
As a final comment (from me anyway), we may not have such a wide ethnic mix here, but believe me, and without elaborating, there are some in this country who would take things into their own hands if the opportunity arose.
Stuart

24th January 2008, 05:35 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Hey Ozzie---Look to your Kiwi Neighbours!! To you Australian neighbours, take a look at the SENSIBLE approach of our regulations here in New Zealand. Check GOOGLE for our Arms Regulations. We have a VERY STRONG lobby group in COLFO (Coalition of Licenced Firearms Owners), and strong government representation from individual shooting and collecting organisations within the country. Also if you have access to your local politician, it would do no harm to establish his/her thinking on weapons ownership and place your vote accordingly. There are plenty of ways to "encourage" the government of the day! If you do not belong to a collecting/arms group, then join one NOW as it is not too late YET for you to get some action underway! There is strength in numbers!! The above in NZ also applies to edged weapons and their ownership and importation. Stuart

25th January 2008, 02:13 AM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	NZ REGS Yes I agree that the Australian system of Federal Govt does not make things easy, but............... surely if some States (Tas) have sensible laws, then pressure MUST be able to be brought to bear thru your local MPs. Also there MUST BE sitting MPs who have an interest in collecting weapons. These could be lobbied to at least air the issue at Govt level !. MPs do not like to risk not being re-elected. I agree with your comment that EDUCATION not REGULATION should take a leading position, but IT WON'T DO IT WITHOUT YOUR HELP, and by "your" I mean each and every collector. We have fought long and hard for reasonable laws here. It does not come to those who sit around and wait for others to act. You just end up with stupid laws (like Canada) or rediculous ones like UK. REMEMBER there is strength in numbers. If there is not a club/association near you then start one! As a final comment (from me anyway), we may not have such a wide ethnic mix here, but believe me, and without elaborating, there are some in this country who would take things into their own hands if the opportunity arose. Stuart

23rd January 2008, 06:07 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SOCIETYS TWO GROUPS 1. THOSE WHO ARE LAW ABIDING ARE NOT A DANGER TO SOCIETY AND DO AND WILL OBEY ITS LAWS. 2.THOSE WHO WILL BREAK ALL LAWS AND BECOME CRIMINALS WHO PREY ON THE SOCIETY AND CONTRIBUTE NOTHING GOOD AND DO NOT AND WILL NOT OBEY ANY LAWS OLD OR NEW. SO LETS MAKE NEW LAWS THAT TAKE ALL MEANS OF PROTECTING THEMSELVES AWAY FROM GROUP ONE. THAT WILL ALSO AUTOMATICALLY PLACE THOSE WHO DO NOT COMPLY INTO GROUP 2 STATUS EVEN IF THEY ARE GOOD CITIZENS. GROUP TWO WILL THEN HAVE FREE REGIN TO COMMIT ANY CRIMES THEY PLEASE ON GROUP ONE WITHOUT DANGER TO THEMSELVES. IF A PERSON FROM GROUP ONE HAS BROKEN THE LAW AND KEPT THE MEANS TO SUCCESFULLY PROTECT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCYS WILL MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF HIM TREATING HIM EVEN WORSE THAN THEY WOULD TREAT A CRIMINAL WITH MANY CRIMES TO HIS CREDIT. THIS IN TURN WILL SEND THE MESSAGE TO THE GOOD WORKING PEOPLE IN GROUP ONE THAT IT IS BETTER TO LET THE CRIMINALS DO AS THEY WISH WITH THEM AND THEIR FAMILYS THAN TO MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. GROUP TWO IN THE MEANTIME ARE JUST MISUNDERSTOOD AND HAVE HAD A ROUGH CHILDHOOD OR BEEN ABUSED IN SOME WAY SO SHOULD BE SHOWN ALL CONSIDERATION SO LAWS SHOULD BE ENACTED TO GIVE THEM SPECIAL CONSIDERATION AND MANY CHANCES TO REFORM IN SOCIETY ON THEIR OWN. ALL THESE THINGS HAVE ACTUALLY HAPPENED ALREADY IN THE USA IN CERTAN PLACES WHERE SUCH LAWS HAVE BEEN INACTED. SO FAR THE RIGHT TO OWN ARMS STILL EXHISTS IN MOST OF THE COUNTRY DESPITE MANY ATTEMPTS TO DO AWAY WITH IT. I AM FOR REMOVING THE CRIMINALS FROM THE SOCIETY, NOT REMOVING A MEANS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THE GOOD PEOPLE.

23rd January 2008, 10:08 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Gavin, let me get this on record:- I have actively opposed restrictive arms legislation in NSW since the 1950's. I have been a hunter and competitive target shooter with both rifle and pistol since I was a child, and I am very familiar with the efforts that have been made by NSW state governments to restrict use and ownership of firearms.Over recent years these governmental efforts have been extended to edged implements, and I have similarly been active in opposing restrictive legislation in respect of knives & etc. Add to this a 40 year career in government bureaucracies as an internal auditor, and close to 20 years of providing consultancy services to bureaucrats in respect of internal audit and risk management. Now factor in a few years of sitting on a government committee. I think I can claim to have an adequate understanding of the way in which government administration functions. To attain uniformity across the states in any legislation, it would first be necessary for all states to agree to transfer their powers relevant to the matter under consideration, to the Commonwealth. Let us assume that a miracle occurred and the states really did agree to transfer their powers in respect of weapons to the Commonwealth. It would then become the responsibility of the Attorney-General's department to incorporate into Commonwealth law the laws which had previously been the responsibility of the states. The way in which this would be achieved would be by ensuring that all clauses in existing state legislations were incorporated into the new Commonwealth legislation. No restrictions would be lost, but NSW would gain the restrictions of all other states. Now, what do you think that would do to Tasmania? Just to clarify a point, in spite of what Dr. Google may tell you, there is no "Department of Justice" within the Australian Commonwealth system. Matters concerning justice and law are the responsibility of the Attorney-General's Department, which is not known as the "Department of Justice". At the present time in Australia we have a Labor government as our national government, and all states also have Labor governments. In US terms, the Labor Party in Australia is essentially a party of democrats . Politically they are aligned with the green movement and in opposition to the domination of capital.I think we are all very well aware of the philosophies of both democrats and greens in respect of the private ownership of weapons. The Australian Labor party holds exactly these same philosophies. It is all very well to talk about what collectors of weaponry may want, and lets not forget firearms owners, but the cold hard facts are that the tide of population density has made it impossible for any administration to allow the freedoms which earlier ages took for granted. This applies not only in the matter of weaponry, but in other things as well. In order to manage our societies with their ever increasing populations, to keep those societies calm and economically viable, it is necessary to impose restrictions upon the society as a whole that will disadvantage minority groups within the society. Collectors of edged weapons are most definitely a minority group. Like it or not, our societies are managed by bureaucrats who for the most part work in accord with the directives of the politicians whom we elected to office. The only way that you can get a politician to move in either one direction, or another, is to clearly demonstrate political advantage. If collectors of edged weapons in Australia, or anywhere else for that matter, want to get legislation changed, they need to demonstrate political advantage for the desired change. If political advantage cannot be demonstrated then those collectors need to work within the system to find ways that will give the politicians what they want, without seriously inconveniencing the collectors. To dream that we can get existing legislation softened is indeed a dream. No politician would run the risk of the public relations disaster that would ensue in the event of injury or death being able to be associated with the removal of some restriction or other. What we have now, we will always have. All we can do is try to influence future legislation, and we can do that by maintaining a very close watch on the review of existing legislation and attempting to ensure that whatever new restrictions may be imposed, they are restrictions that we can live with. This is best achieved on an organisational basis by collector's societies, shooter's societies, and so forth making approaches to the relevant ministers, and by employing lobbiests.On a grassroots level a letter writing campaign can also be effective:- it is very difficult for any politician to ignore a letter, especially when directed through a local member of parliament. Every politician knows that a letter from one person represents ten people who are unhappy. The ultimate protection for any minority group is to have a dedicated member elected to the Upper House. In NSW , firearms owners and users have achieved this and now have not one, but two senators who are members of The Shooters Party , sitting in the Upper House. In order for us to achieve the best possible outcomes from any future legislation that could impact upon our interests, it is necessary to stop dreaming of what we might like to have, and face the realities of the political world in which we live. To survive in this political world we need to understand how this world functions, and we need to use the weapons of this world to our own advantage. These weapons are a clear understanding of the legislation that sets the rules, and a clear understanding of how we can influence the people who make the rules. I strongly recommend a reading of "The Prince", for those of you who have not yet read it. Combined with Sun Tzu it will teach you all you need to know about achieving any objective. Barry, the only reason that you still have the right to firearms ownership in the USA is because many years ago the NRA realised that in order to protect the rights enshrined in your Constitution they needed to become political. If you had not had NRA political activity do you think that you would still enjoy the right to own firearms? As for the criminal element, it is a fact that the more dense a population becomes, the more likely it is for criminal activity within that population to increase. It is also a fact that as the gap between the wealthiest in any population, and the poorest in any population gets wider, the criminal activity in that population will increase. What is the population of the USA? What percentage of the national wealth is held by the top two percent of that population? What percentage of wealth is held by the bottom ten percent of the population? Consider the answers to these questions and I think that perhaps you will be able to see the future.

24th January 2008, 06:46 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Yes Stuart, we are aware of the more relaxed attitude to firearms in New Zealand. It seems to approach the attitude that prevailed in Australia around 50 years ago , when the population of Australia was around the 9 million mark. The population of New Zealand today is somewhere around 4 million people, which is a little less than the population of the city of Sydney; the population of Australia today is around 21 million people. Additionally, there is considerable difference in the way in which the administration of New Zealand is structured, as compared with the structure of the Australian administration. The demographic has different characteristics, and the history of settlement, which is linked to the history of firearms ownership, is also different. There are a number of reasons why New Zealand is able to enjoy a less restrictive firearms regime. However, possibly the most important reason is that because New Zealand was not subjected to the same explosive population mix, combined with greater population density, that Australia has experienced, there has not been the pressure from the wider community for arms control that has occurred in Australia. This has allowed the interested parties in New Zealand a period of grace, if you will, and realising that it would not be long before they also faced restrictions , political action was implemented early. The Australian experience showed quite clearly what was ahead if action was not taken. Your recommendations to Gavin are completely correct. The whole issue of ownership of any type of arms is now a political matter, and the only way it can be addressed is by political means. Legislation of any type normally reflects the wishes of the wider community, so if anti-weapons legislation is introduced, it is because the wider community sees this as desirable. As well as demonstrating political positives to politicians for not passing restrictive legislation, it is probably advisable to maintain a consistent public relations program to attempt to induce a better understanding of weaponry and those who use and collect it, amongst the general public. Gavin, in our earlier exchange we were not discussing state structures, but Commonwealth structures:- uniform legislation across states dictates that such legislation must be Commonwealth legislation. Each state, and the Commonwealth, has the right and the obligation to affix titles to the departments for which its individual ministers are responsible. There is no obligation to maintain any sort of uniformity in the way in which each administration affixes such titles. At a state level some states do have a Department of Justice, however, the Commonwealth of Australia does not have a Department of Justice, it has an Attorney-General's Department, which is responsible for justice.