Indian export of iron/steel

Jens Nordlunde · 20th January 2008, 08:55 PM

As far as I know, Merv is in a desert - so not trees and no ore, the only important thing was the Silk Road.
I have always wondererd why they imported ore and wood, and not the finished ingots but this question will no doubt never be answered.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th January 2008, 09:30 PM

Ariel,

Got it, it is in Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking by Robert G. Hoyland and Brian Gilmour, 2006. Page 124.
When Ann first told me about it, I was wondering from where the ore and wood came, but never got around to ask her - so now I ask you, the ones who are supposed to know these things - form where did the ore and the wood come - and did they also import the clay???

ariel · 20th January 2008, 11:14 PM

More precisely, picture pages between PP.120-121.
Khorasan is a region, not city, between Iran, Afghanistan,old Transoxania, old Tokharistan and the city of Merv. Mostly, it was ruled by Bukhara and Samarkand in the Ferghana Valley. There are no known ( at least, to me) iron deposits. Iron got there from upper India, mostly Sindh. As to the wood: the geography of the region was irrevocably altered by the Mongols who conquered Khorezm ( Quarizm, Khorasan) in the 13th century : Gengiz-Khan flooded the city of Urgench and the course of River Oxus went aslant, to the Caspian, instead of Aral, Sea for ~300 years. This is why a good part of the area became a desert.
Legends to the Figs. in the Gilmoure's book clearly indicate sources: crucible steel ingot from Banbhore (Sindh), 8-9th centuries and Sri Lanka ( Salman), ~9th cen. The crucible steel sword from Nishapur (Fig.13) is attributed to Salman, Sri Lanka.
The only witnessed account of Central Asian production of wootz ( by Capt. Massalski) refers to Bukhara, and the Feuerbach's data were also collected at Merv. Fig. 19 in the same book, showing "Persian" miniature of ironworkers is of early Bukharan style. There is no, to my knowledge, a single eyewitnessed account of Persian wootz manufacture even though Persia was flooded with European military advisers. Uzbeks ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand etc) were sworn enemies of Iran.
Together with the Indian data, it seems to me that Persians never made wootz; they just used imported ingots to make blades. That is why their production of wootz blades came to an abrupt halt after the Brits banned wootz manufacture in India in the 19th century ( allegedly to conserve forests, Al Gores that they were, but in reality to weaken competition with British imports). As to who used these blades? Also not Persians: most of Persian military was composed of Georgians, Armenians, Turks and Turkmen.
Ethnic Persians were administrators and artizans; they left fighting to mercenaries.

spiral · 21st January 2008, 10:50 AM

Great stuff jens! Fascinating!

Iron ore Coal & timber & the ability to use it has existed in Nepal for hundreds of years.

As for importing, I cant recall any definate facts in old texts but the Nepalese used to both trade prolificaly & also there Gurkhas would invade & take over & loot many countries including many parts of Northen India & Tibet so I am sure items from many areas where then hauled back to Nepal.

Today most steel in Nepal is imported from India, I dont know when this became standard practice but would imagine Victorean times is quite possible.

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 21st January 2008, 03:53 PM

On an old map I have found, from 1949, it seems as if iron is found to the east and to the south in India, but not to the weat and the north - things could of course have been different two hundred years earlier or so.

20th January 2008, 08:55 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	As far as I know, Merv is in a desert - so not trees and no ore, the only important thing was the Silk Road. I have always wondererd why they imported ore and wood, and not the finished ingots but this question will no doubt never be answered.

20th January 2008, 09:30 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, Got it, it is in Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking by Robert G. Hoyland and Brian Gilmour, 2006. Page 124. When Ann first told me about it, I was wondering from where the ore and wood came, but never got around to ask her - so now I ask you, the ones who are supposed to know these things - form where did the ore and the wood come - and did they also import the clay???

20th January 2008, 11:14 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	More precisely, picture pages between PP.120-121. Khorasan is a region, not city, between Iran, Afghanistan,old Transoxania, old Tokharistan and the city of Merv. Mostly, it was ruled by Bukhara and Samarkand in the Ferghana Valley. There are no known ( at least, to me) iron deposits. Iron got there from upper India, mostly Sindh. As to the wood: the geography of the region was irrevocably altered by the Mongols who conquered Khorezm ( Quarizm, Khorasan) in the 13th century : Gengiz-Khan flooded the city of Urgench and the course of River Oxus went aslant, to the Caspian, instead of Aral, Sea for ~300 years. This is why a good part of the area became a desert. Legends to the Figs. in the Gilmoure's book clearly indicate sources: crucible steel ingot from Banbhore (Sindh), 8-9th centuries and Sri Lanka ( Salman), ~9th cen. The crucible steel sword from Nishapur (Fig.13) is attributed to Salman, Sri Lanka. The only witnessed account of Central Asian production of wootz ( by Capt. Massalski) refers to Bukhara, and the Feuerbach's data were also collected at Merv. Fig. 19 in the same book, showing "Persian" miniature of ironworkers is of early Bukharan style. There is no, to my knowledge, a single eyewitnessed account of Persian wootz manufacture even though Persia was flooded with European military advisers. Uzbeks ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand etc) were sworn enemies of Iran. Together with the Indian data, it seems to me that Persians never made wootz; they just used imported ingots to make blades. That is why their production of wootz blades came to an abrupt halt after the Brits banned wootz manufacture in India in the 19th century ( allegedly to conserve forests, Al Gores that they were, but in reality to weaken competition with British imports). As to who used these blades? Also not Persians: most of Persian military was composed of Georgians, Armenians, Turks and Turkmen. Ethnic Persians were administrators and artizans; they left fighting to mercenaries.

21st January 2008, 10:50 AM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great stuff jens! Fascinating! Iron ore Coal & timber & the ability to use it has existed in Nepal for hundreds of years. As for importing, I cant recall any definate facts in old texts but the Nepalese used to both trade prolificaly & also there Gurkhas would invade & take over & loot many countries including many parts of Northen India & Tibet so I am sure items from many areas where then hauled back to Nepal. Today most steel in Nepal is imported from India, I dont know when this became standard practice but would imagine Victorean times is quite possible. Spiral

21st January 2008, 03:53 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	On an old map I have found, from 1949, it seems as if iron is found to the east and to the south in India, but not to the weat and the north - things could of course have been different two hundred years earlier or so.