Sudanese Haladie?

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Gonzalo,
If I may say so, I would like to both thank you as well as congratulate you on your brilliant posting of this indeed intriguing weapon. It seems that there have been a number of inquiries on a broad spectrum of historic edged weapons coming from several museums in Mexico, and it impresses me that such a serious approach to the study of these weapons is being observed. This is especially pleasing as in these times it seems that in too many museums, weapons are simply thrown into storage or worse, displayed with terribly inaccurate descriptions.
What is even better is that you have not only presented this weapon, the 'haladie', with known material concerning it, and fully referenced, and best of all you have asked the key question, from where might this weapon have evolved.

In response, I would say that the multiple bladed weapons were indeed quite prevalent among weapons produced by Indian armourers, and we have discussed here katars with as many as five blades, though more common are the triple bladed examples (for more see "Hindu Arms and Ritual" by Robert Elgood, as well of course as Stone, 'katar').
The 'haladie' is likely of course associated with the 'madu' which is essentially comprised of two buffalo horns fastened together opposed as seen with haladie blades. While the madu of horns was primarily something used by religious mendicants and holy men termed 'fakirs' because they were not allowed weapons in the true sense, and these makeshift weapons were comprised of natural items (horns) .
The Rajputs may well have applied the double blade concept, as it was well established that these were deadly in crowded conditions, thus would serve well in dismounted melee, and they fashioned thier own version using the deadly blades of the 'bichwa'.

The thuluth script on your haladie, if I understand correctly , was often incomprehensible literally and comprised symbolized calligraphy that was intended to typically illiterate tribesmen during the Mahdist period in Sudan (please correct if my understanding of the thuluth is wrong . In any case, the script was acid etched in armouries in either Khartoum or Omburman.

India did indeed export many weapons to Arabia and Africa, through the Arab trade on the Malabar Coast. I am not aware of any examples of haladie made in India, however it is clear that the weapon itself in concept certainly is likely to have come from there. The weapons of Sudan reflect other weapons in thier armouries as well, and there are yataghans, the axes and others that arrived via other Ottoman trade sources.
What has always surpised me is that despite the vast diffusion to Sudan and other regions in Eastern Africa of many weapons, that as far as I know, the tulwar is never represented among them.

Thank you so much for posting this haladie, and the opportunity to discuss it.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Katana, I feel inclined to agree with you. Ward, very interesting your notation about those inscriptions. Jim, thank you for your kind words. I never thinked about the relation of the madu with this weapon, but as you pointed to it, it seems obvious. Very good point. It is also a very good point, to observe the absence of the tulwar in the Sudan arsenal. I thank you for your wise comments and attention to this thread. Your help was very valuable.
My best regards

Gonzalo G

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Gonzalo!
I have sent you a PM.

All the best,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is an Indian one.

[Jim McDougall]

"I am not aware of any examples of haladie made in India, however it is clear that the weapon itself in concept certainly is likely to have come from there"
-in my original post.


Jens, thank you for catching what was an obvious misstatement
What I had meant to say was that I was not aware of haladies made expressly for the Sudan, with the thuluth motif and so on. Obviously the Rajput haladies are well known, and most likely influenced the Sudanese examples indirectly, probably via the examples which came via Syria (as Stone references) or equally possible via the Arab trade in Malabar.

While I caught some incomplete sentences and edited them, apparantly I wasnt awake enough to catch this, the most obvious error! oops.
Thank you again Jens,


All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

There is no need to be sorry, Jim, I understood exactly what you did want to mean, as for the context of your words it can be deduced. I thought that obviously you have perfect knowledge of the indian haladis made for indian customers.

Jens, thank you for your support. Our friend, Andreas, talks often about you. I will treasure your image in my PC.
My best

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

On the other side, I think the presence of the haladie in Sudan must be dated before of the Mahdi rebellion, as Egerton made his studies about those weapons before that time. It could be related to the time of the construction of the Suez Canal, but I don´t know if the coolies from India bring that kind of influences to Africa, or the influences came from another path. This only speculation, but I dont know the reach and level of all the indian people who went to that construction. I can only be sure of the presence of the most basic level of handworkers. Of course, I can be wrong, and if somebody has better information, please feel free to post.

Neverthless, and as Jim noted to me, "Egerton wrote in 1880, prior to the fall of Khartoum, but did revise his catalog some years later after British campaigns in the Sudan and in fact those revisions do include certain Sudanese weapons." So, the question still remains open: from what time period, and from what means, the indian influence began to be felt in the Sudan arsenal, and the first haladies begin to appear?

My best regards

Gonzalo

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gonzalo,

The maru is inscribed on both sides of the two blades, but unfortunately most is worn off. However the year is still there 1221 (1806 AD).

Please give Andreas my regards.

Jens

[Tim Simmons]

Gonzalo, this thread gives me the opportunity to show two of my most inspiring pieces. Clearly there is Indo-Persian link or perhaps a Persian-Indo-Islam link as the triangular stiletto blade covered in script appears to be found from the Sudan to Indonesia. I think the link is more to do with Islam as the Indian decoration is quite different with inlays, depictions of people and on the whole floral in sentiment.
There have been examples of the "Islamic" stiletto shown in other topics. The stiletto has loose form of this script based decoration like the example you show. The axe shown here has a more tight version which frames the Arabic script most successfully, the hook is decorated in the same manner. The halft and the spear point are done in a more loose version.

[Gonzalo G]

Jens, thank you very much for your data and picture. I will give your regards to Andreas, and mention the help you gave me.

Tim, yours is a relevant contribution to the study of this influencues, documented in this pictures. I appreciate your participation. Thank you.
All the best

Gonzalo