E. Java or Lombok keris blade?

kai · 14th January 2008, 09:04 AM

Hello Rob,

Eastern Jawa?

Some more close-ups may help...

Regards,
Kai

RobT · 15th January 2008, 12:35 AM

Hi kai,
Thanks for the reply. I'll try to take some better pictures this weekend if I get good sunlight. Do many eastern Java keris have Balinese hilts and do the blades in some cases tend to be larger than in the rest of Java?
Sincerely,
RobT

David · 15th January 2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi kai,
Thanks for the reply. I'll try to take some better pictures this weekend if I get good sunlight. Do many eastern Java keris have Balinese hilts and do the blades in some cases tend to be larger than in the rest of Java?
Sincerely,
RobT

I believe East Jawa is known to have a fair sized Bali community so i believe the influence stems from there.

RobT · 27th January 2008, 08:43 PM

Hi All,
Here are better pictures of my possible Bali/Java hybrid. I have included new photos of the blade tip and base, hilt, wranka, and pendok. The blade size and hilt say Bali but everything else says Java. The blade fits the sheath and the wood of the hilt and wranka match. The best speculation thus far is a Balinese living in Java that remembers the old country.
Sincerely,
RobT

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2008, 01:18 AM

When we ask where a keris is from, it is important in many cases to define exactly what we mean by this question.

I have had keris referred to me for identification that came with good provenance going back in some cases over 100 years that told of exactly where and how they were collected, and the various component parts of the keris were from the four directions of the compass--- with some parts being unidentifiable. So even in Indonesia and Malaysia local people were mixing and matching parts years and years ago.

Local Indonesian dealers mix and match parts, dealers all over the world mix and match parts, collectors mix and match parts. Almost everybody mixes and matches, and as far as I can see always did, even back to at least the 16th century.

Where mixing and matching was at a minimum, and sometimes did not exist at all was where keris were used in a society that was under the direct influence and/or control of a kraton.

So when we want to classify a keris we need to split it up into its component parts.

In respect of Kai Wee's keris what I can see in the photo is a blade that could be from Jawa, Bali or Lombok. If Jawa, more likely East Jawa than elsewhere on Jawa, but it could be Bali or Lombok too, and I would not be prepared to be at all definite about it unless I had it in my hand. The warangan does not appear to be Balinese warangan.

The wrongko is the kandikan or bataan style. Some people also call this ladrangan, but in my opinion that is wrong.It could be either Bali or Lombok, and I personally make no distinction, as a Lombok wrongko of this style was made and used by Balinese people living on Lombok and still associated with mainland Balinese culture.

The hilt is the bondolan style and the same remarks I have made for the wrongko apply to this hilt.

The uwer is Balinese and new.

Rob's keris is more difficult.

The blade has some stylistic features that indicate Balinese origin, notably the long blumbangan and the pawakan, but there are other features , especially the material, that do not look Balinese. I would want to see this blade stained, and depending on the result from that, then possibly polished and stained again before I would be prepared to give a solid, defensible opinion on this blade.

The atasan of the wrongko is probably East Javanese, but the pendok is totally, totally out of proportion and just plain terrible. Somebody probably thought the pendok would look good for some reason or another, but it really looks wrong.

The hilt at first appearance seems to be Balinese, but there is a Madura/East Jawa hilt that is very similar to Balinese hilts, except that it has a slightly foreshortened proportion and seems a bit more chunky than a Bali hilt. From the pics I cannot see if this hilt is that style or not, and maybe I couldn't tell if it was from any photo. The difference is so slight sometimes that it really only registers when you hold it.

The image of the uwer is unclear, but it seems to be new and Balinese.

So, what is the origin of both these keris?

I would suggest that A)-- from photographs it is impossible to provide a defensible opinion, and that B)--- the various component parts of both keris could have originated in various different locations.

RobT · 28th January 2008, 03:15 AM

To A. G. Maisey,
I feel like Watson. How the deuce did you know that Holmes?! I compared the hilt on my keris side by side to a bandolan hilt that I am certain is Balinese and for sure the one on the keris in question is shorter and stumpier than its Balinese counterpart. That such a hilt type exists is very good to know in of itself but in this context it also serves to resolve why the wranka looked Javanese, the hilt Balinese and yet the wood of both matched so closely as to indicate they were created en suite.
The blade to sheath fit is perfect and therefore is either a remarkable bit of serendipity or a pretty strong argument for the dress having been made for the blade. I will go out on a limb and say that if we couple the likelihood of an en suite hilt and wranka with the blade and sheath fit, it makes a Javanese made blade with some Balinese features plausible, no?
The only sticky point is the pendok. It fits the gandar perfectly and the gandar is roughened as I believe is common for a pendok bunton. Perhaps the original gandar was modified or replaced to accept the current pendok?
As i mentioned in my earlier post, the uwer isn't original to the piece. It is as you said, new. Could you tell me what type of mendak would be appropriate to this type of hilt or would the uwer still be ok?
I really thank you for your input. Not only have you added to my knowledge, you have also put the pieces of the puzzle together.
Sincerely,
RobT

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2008, 04:54 AM

With respect to the blade, blades tend to be made in accordance with the type that dominates in the area where they are made. Keris makers in, say, Tuban on Jawa's north coast did not make blades that looked like blades from Central Jawa. Same with this one of yours. To be sure I'd want to go through the rigmarole I outlined previously, but taking into account the additional information you have just given, and if the hilt is the type I described, I think you've probably got a Blambangan keris, far eastern tip of Jawa. The pendok is a ringin. It is probable that the original gandar rotted and needed replacement, and the best they could do was a pendok.

I say "Blambangan", because Blambangan blades, also Bantam blades, and the typical big Bali blades all share certain characteristics, one of which is the blumbangan---don't get confused by the blum and the blam:- the blumbangan is the picitan, Blambangan is a place.

As to a mendak, well, I don't really know. The keris of this type that I have seen in original condition have never had either mendak or uwer, they've been just the handle with nothing.But that is also true of the majority of old Balinese keris I have seen in unrestored condition.

27th January 2008, 08:43 PM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 539	it was a sunny day Hi All, Here are better pictures of my possible Bali/Java hybrid. I have included new photos of the blade tip and base, hilt, wranka, and pendok. The blade size and hilt say Bali but everything else says Java. The blade fits the sheath and the wood of the hilt and wranka match. The best speculation thus far is a Balinese living in Java that remembers the old country. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

28th January 2008, 03:15 AM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 539	Wow To A. G. Maisey, I feel like Watson. How the deuce did you know that Holmes?! I compared the hilt on my keris side by side to a bandolan hilt that I am certain is Balinese and for sure the one on the keris in question is shorter and stumpier than its Balinese counterpart. That such a hilt type exists is very good to know in of itself but in this context it also serves to resolve why the wranka looked Javanese, the hilt Balinese and yet the wood of both matched so closely as to indicate they were created en suite. The blade to sheath fit is perfect and therefore is either a remarkable bit of serendipity or a pretty strong argument for the dress having been made for the blade. I will go out on a limb and say that if we couple the likelihood of an en suite hilt and wranka with the blade and sheath fit, it makes a Javanese made blade with some Balinese features plausible, no? The only sticky point is the pendok. It fits the gandar perfectly and the gandar is roughened as I believe is common for a pendok bunton. Perhaps the original gandar was modified or replaced to accept the current pendok? As i mentioned in my earlier post, the uwer isn't original to the piece. It is as you said, new. Could you tell me what type of mendak would be appropriate to this type of hilt or would the uwer still be ok? I really thank you for your input. Not only have you added to my knowledge, you have also put the pieces of the puzzle together. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 28th January 2008 at 03:16 AM. Reason: typo

14th January 2008, 09:04 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Rob, Eastern Jawa? Some more close-ups may help... Regards, Kai

15th January 2008, 12:35 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 539	Hi kai, Thanks for the reply. I'll try to take some better pictures this weekend if I get good sunlight. Do many eastern Java keris have Balinese hilts and do the blades in some cases tend to be larger than in the rest of Java? Sincerely, RobT

28th January 2008, 01:18 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	When we ask where a keris is from, it is important in many cases to define exactly what we mean by this question. I have had keris referred to me for identification that came with good provenance going back in some cases over 100 years that told of exactly where and how they were collected, and the various component parts of the keris were from the four directions of the compass--- with some parts being unidentifiable. So even in Indonesia and Malaysia local people were mixing and matching parts years and years ago. Local Indonesian dealers mix and match parts, dealers all over the world mix and match parts, collectors mix and match parts. Almost everybody mixes and matches, and as far as I can see always did, even back to at least the 16th century. Where mixing and matching was at a minimum, and sometimes did not exist at all was where keris were used in a society that was under the direct influence and/or control of a kraton. So when we want to classify a keris we need to split it up into its component parts. In respect of Kai Wee's keris what I can see in the photo is a blade that could be from Jawa, Bali or Lombok. If Jawa, more likely East Jawa than elsewhere on Jawa, but it could be Bali or Lombok too, and I would not be prepared to be at all definite about it unless I had it in my hand. The warangan does not appear to be Balinese warangan. The wrongko is the kandikan or bataan style. Some people also call this ladrangan, but in my opinion that is wrong.It could be either Bali or Lombok, and I personally make no distinction, as a Lombok wrongko of this style was made and used by Balinese people living on Lombok and still associated with mainland Balinese culture. The hilt is the bondolan style and the same remarks I have made for the wrongko apply to this hilt. The uwer is Balinese and new. Rob's keris is more difficult. The blade has some stylistic features that indicate Balinese origin, notably the long blumbangan and the pawakan, but there are other features , especially the material, that do not look Balinese. I would want to see this blade stained, and depending on the result from that, then possibly polished and stained again before I would be prepared to give a solid, defensible opinion on this blade. The atasan of the wrongko is probably East Javanese, but the pendok is totally, totally out of proportion and just plain terrible. Somebody probably thought the pendok would look good for some reason or another, but it really looks wrong. The hilt at first appearance seems to be Balinese, but there is a Madura/East Jawa hilt that is very similar to Balinese hilts, except that it has a slightly foreshortened proportion and seems a bit more chunky than a Bali hilt. From the pics I cannot see if this hilt is that style or not, and maybe I couldn't tell if it was from any photo. The difference is so slight sometimes that it really only registers when you hold it. The image of the uwer is unclear, but it seems to be new and Balinese. So, what is the origin of both these keris? I would suggest that A)-- from photographs it is impossible to provide a defensible opinion, and that B)--- the various component parts of both keris could have originated in various different locations.

28th January 2008, 04:54 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	With respect to the blade, blades tend to be made in accordance with the type that dominates in the area where they are made. Keris makers in, say, Tuban on Jawa's north coast did not make blades that looked like blades from Central Jawa. Same with this one of yours. To be sure I'd want to go through the rigmarole I outlined previously, but taking into account the additional information you have just given, and if the hilt is the type I described, I think you've probably got a Blambangan keris, far eastern tip of Jawa. The pendok is a ringin. It is probable that the original gandar rotted and needed replacement, and the best they could do was a pendok. I say "Blambangan", because Blambangan blades, also Bantam blades, and the typical big Bali blades all share certain characteristics, one of which is the blumbangan---don't get confused by the blum and the blam:- the blumbangan is the picitan, Blambangan is a place. As to a mendak, well, I don't really know. The keris of this type that I have seen in original condition have never had either mendak or uwer, they've been just the handle with nothing.But that is also true of the majority of old Balinese keris I have seen in unrestored condition.