Now for that other sword, Nimcha?

Federico · 18th March 2005, 08:57 PM

Mike thanks for the reply. I checked the cracks, and if I am understanding right, I think they are showing layering. So would it be water buffulo horn?

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 11:30 PM

It's probably cattle horn; there really aren't any water buffaloes around.
This style, commonly referred to as nimcha, is called saif (sayf) by its users. It is commonly thought of as Moorocan, but if found down the Swahili coast and in Arabia (where it may or may not originate). Based on the handle and especially the guard, this one appears to be from Mooroco or the Magreb. The blade may well be native, and in my limitted experiece, likely to be spring tempered.

Federico · 19th March 2005, 12:16 AM

Thanks for the input Tom, would cattle horn be the explanation for the greenish color? I gotta admit, Im used to carabao horn, and not familiar with other types. Do have any more characteristics for what to look for in cattle horn?

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 12:45 AM

Basically it's the same as water buffaloe, but different in colour, varying from golden to various browns and orange and some dark greenish shades. It is often said that the paler green is from heating, and that the green horn available to N American cutlers in the early 20th was from Germany. In N American folk lore green horn is over heated (an explanation for the term greenhorn referring to an inexperienced person, such as would overheat the horn, for instance; I don't, BTW, buy this explanation for "greenhorn", but it is the common one), but it was clearly a deliberate affect with the German stuff. I don't know if it was supposed to affect the horn's qualities in some way, other than the heat making it flexible while hot (useful with "scales" but not so much with forming a "block" type handle), or if it was done to uniformize the look, much as occurs when the steam is forced into wood before it goes into the drying kiln in the modern industial process.

Conogre · 19th March 2005, 02:57 AM

Due to the maker's mark, I'd think it's a quality blade and from the true Nimchas that I've seen, I'd be surprised if it's a spring steel blade.....my own assesment is that that's a 100% battle sword that probably has many tales to tell, some on a par with the fiercest Moros.
Cattle horn carries a surprisingly wide range of quality and characteristics due to the fact that cattle themselves come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes.....the Massai cattle, for instance, often have horns longer than any Texas longhorn, some almost rivaling a carabao in length, and as you know, that's a BIG horn.
The really long horns are probably the only ones that would have enough solid area to make a hilt as thick as yours, Federico, with the majority hollow, and indeed, layered, much as are your own fingernails........basically horns are usually for the life of the animal, while antlers are shed and regrown for the rut each year (which makes some of the huge moose and elk racks truly amazing!) and usually found on males only, although there are exceptions.
Horn gives a very tough, durable material that's often mistaken for plastic, and, as Tom pointed out, it can be rendered much more maleable by heating it, plus it can be readily carved, cut and shaped lending itself to some beautifuwork in the hands of someone skilled in working with it.
A sometimes disadvantage is that it can peel in layers, particularly from a chip or cut, also if allowed to become thoroughly soaked, but this same characteristic can sometimes be an actual advantage, as the roughness allows for a better, non-slip grip whereas a highly polished hilt can become very slippery if sweaty or bloody.
Rhinocerous and giraffe horn, by the way, are particularly highly prized as sword/knife hilts because by being composed of compressed hair bundles, when it becomes wet it expands and almost "clings" to the hand, seeming to magickly "glue " itself in the grasp, a trait that makes it ideal.....in the former case, the suggested masculinity of the horn itself also has inherent talsimantic properties (even though horns are found on rhinos of BOTH sexes **grin**),to the point that even shavings are valued and put into potions and native medicines.
Take the attitude of a rhinocerous as well, notorious for attacking anything anytime anywhere and you have a potent magic material that has literally almost resulted in the extinction of the animal.
Whew.....sorry for getting carried away there....zoology sometimes does that to me! **grin**
Mike

Federico · 19th March 2005, 08:05 AM

Thanks Tom and Mike for all the information about horn. This was a real lucky find, as I am a cheapskate when it comes to non-PI pieces. The blade is real nice, and from its feel was definitely not a display piece. Ive never handled a single handed sword that was so big and so agile. Though the thickness of the spine makes me feel confident in its durability. One odd note, where the blade meets the guard, there are a couple of nails hammered upwards into the hilt, they almost seem like shims holding the blade into the hilt. I wonder if its due to the previous owner, as a kampilan purchased from the same collection has a very interesting re-constructed hilt done with nails as well. If its a secondary repair, it was done very well, as the blade feels very sturdy (the kampilan repair is done very well also, didnt even realize it was so severely shattered and rebuilt till I started to notice nail heads sticking out, though with their patina they blend very well with the wood).

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 12:45 PM

I've encountered both nails and wooden wedges driven into tang holes to re-tighten hilts many times from many cultures on everthing from everyday tools to fancy weapons; I wouldn't read much of anything into it.
The thickness of the the blade is interesting in comination with its native look (mark, long ricassoe, narrow though wider than usual fuller that runs right up into the handle); I've owned two of these, and both had what I'm pretty sure are native blades, one showing considerable age and I wouldn't be surprised if it's c.18, and both were nicely sping tempered. I don't typically go around flexing other peoples' swords, so that's really the extent of my input on that issue.

19th March 2005, 12:45 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Basically it's the same as water buffaloe, but different in colour, varying from golden to various browns and orange and some dark greenish shades. It is often said that the paler green is from heating, and that the green horn available to N American cutlers in the early 20th was from Germany. In N American folk lore green horn is over heated (an explanation for the term greenhorn referring to an inexperienced person, such as would overheat the horn, for instance; I don't, BTW, buy this explanation for "greenhorn", but it is the common one), but it was clearly a deliberate affect with the German stuff. I don't know if it was supposed to affect the horn's qualities in some way, other than the heat making it flexible while hot (useful with "scales" but not so much with forming a "block" type handle), or if it was done to uniformize the look, much as occurs when the steam is forced into wood before it goes into the drying kiln in the modern industial process. Last edited by tom hyle; 19th March 2005 at 12:48 PM.

18th March 2005, 08:57 PM	#1
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Mike thanks for the reply. I checked the cracks, and if I am understanding right, I think they are showing layering. So would it be water buffulo horn?

18th March 2005, 11:30 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It's probably cattle horn; there really aren't any water buffaloes around. This style, commonly referred to as nimcha, is called saif (sayf) by its users. It is commonly thought of as Moorocan, but if found down the Swahili coast and in Arabia (where it may or may not originate). Based on the handle and especially the guard, this one appears to be from Mooroco or the Magreb. The blade may well be native, and in my limitted experiece, likely to be spring tempered.

19th March 2005, 12:16 AM	#3
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Thanks for the input Tom, would cattle horn be the explanation for the greenish color? I gotta admit, Im used to carabao horn, and not familiar with other types. Do have any more characteristics for what to look for in cattle horn?

19th March 2005, 02:57 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Due to the maker's mark, I'd think it's a quality blade and from the true Nimchas that I've seen, I'd be surprised if it's a spring steel blade.....my own assesment is that that's a 100% battle sword that probably has many tales to tell, some on a par with the fiercest Moros. Cattle horn carries a surprisingly wide range of quality and characteristics due to the fact that cattle themselves come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes.....the Massai cattle, for instance, often have horns longer than any Texas longhorn, some almost rivaling a carabao in length, and as you know, that's a BIG horn. The really long horns are probably the only ones that would have enough solid area to make a hilt as thick as yours, Federico, with the majority hollow, and indeed, layered, much as are your own fingernails........basically horns are usually for the life of the animal, while antlers are shed and regrown for the rut each year (which makes some of the huge moose and elk racks truly amazing!) and usually found on males only, although there are exceptions. Horn gives a very tough, durable material that's often mistaken for plastic, and, as Tom pointed out, it can be rendered much more maleable by heating it, plus it can be readily carved, cut and shaped lending itself to some beautifuwork in the hands of someone skilled in working with it. A sometimes disadvantage is that it can peel in layers, particularly from a chip or cut, also if allowed to become thoroughly soaked, but this same characteristic can sometimes be an actual advantage, as the roughness allows for a better, non-slip grip whereas a highly polished hilt can become very slippery if sweaty or bloody. Rhinocerous and giraffe horn, by the way, are particularly highly prized as sword/knife hilts because by being composed of compressed hair bundles, when it becomes wet it expands and almost "clings" to the hand, seeming to magickly "glue " itself in the grasp, a trait that makes it ideal.....in the former case, the suggested masculinity of the horn itself also has inherent talsimantic properties (even though horns are found on rhinos of BOTH sexes grin),to the point that even shavings are valued and put into potions and native medicines. Take the attitude of a rhinocerous as well, notorious for attacking anything anytime anywhere and you have a potent magic material that has literally almost resulted in the extinction of the animal. Whew.....sorry for getting carried away there....zoology sometimes does that to me! grin Mike

19th March 2005, 08:05 AM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Thanks Tom and Mike for all the information about horn. This was a real lucky find, as I am a cheapskate when it comes to non-PI pieces. The blade is real nice, and from its feel was definitely not a display piece. Ive never handled a single handed sword that was so big and so agile. Though the thickness of the spine makes me feel confident in its durability. One odd note, where the blade meets the guard, there are a couple of nails hammered upwards into the hilt, they almost seem like shims holding the blade into the hilt. I wonder if its due to the previous owner, as a kampilan purchased from the same collection has a very interesting re-constructed hilt done with nails as well. If its a secondary repair, it was done very well, as the blade feels very sturdy (the kampilan repair is done very well also, didnt even realize it was so severely shattered and rebuilt till I started to notice nail heads sticking out, though with their patina they blend very well with the wood).

19th March 2005, 12:45 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I've encountered both nails and wooden wedges driven into tang holes to re-tighten hilts many times from many cultures on everthing from everyday tools to fancy weapons; I wouldn't read much of anything into it. The thickness of the the blade is interesting in comination with its native look (mark, long ricassoe, narrow though wider than usual fuller that runs right up into the handle); I've owned two of these, and both had what I'm pretty sure are native blades, one showing considerable age and I wouldn't be surprised if it's c.18, and both were nicely sping tempered. I don't typically go around flexing other peoples' swords, so that's really the extent of my input on that issue.