Bullets and blades

Bill · 18th March 2005, 06:15 AM

think .44 mag would do that & that wasn't around then. The exit hole is perfect, solid flat hit

Federico · 18th March 2005, 08:24 AM

Well what I remembered about this one, was that I followed the original auction, to later see it relisted in this auction (meaning once the item ended ebay had the note it had been relisted). For the original, I didnt see anything particularly exciting about the barong, and found the whole Datu line to be amusing. I am hoping that I was just not that observant the first time around. But well the first time around, there was absolutely no interest in this well labelled piece, and while my memory and observation skills are not the best, I cant help but be worried. Anyways, I hope I am wrong, but having never seen such precice damage before I am worried.

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 01:55 PM

You know, I've felt this concern the whole time we've discussed this topic; that is very very dangerous if there comes to be any benefit, aura of adventure, stink of blood, desireability to a bullet-struck sword, and unfurtuneately I think there is, because some soul less piece of nothing is going to shoot a hole in an old sword to help sell it. Now, young foolish people clanking old swords because "that's what they're for"

or to get that "cool used look" for their own childish amusement is bad enough (and they usually are children who do this), but to wreak deliberate damage in order to tell a false tale of woe.....it's a bit like if a lawyer wasn't an ambulance chaser (too bad a good or loyal one never chased any of mine) but was setting up auto collisions and permanently injuring people just to create a business oportunity (come to think of it this does happen). It's just so way too bad that there is no limit to human intelligence nor stupidity; love nor evil; and any thing, no matter how off the wall, that you can think of, some idiot will do, and unfortuneately he may just be out there, listening for that dumb idea he's crazy enough to do and too stupid to come up with on his own...........
What horrible creatures there are

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 02:07 PM

Yannis, that's interesting, but what makes you think it's after-market? I could easily see it being a repair on a long welding flaw; a continuation of the very visible line that run out its ends; often so hard though, to tell damage from original flaws. Is it a plug or an overlay?
Bill, I can't see the other surrounding crack you're talking about (as you predicted), but I don't know that it rules out a forging flaw; the raggedness of this hole does not seem consistent with a bullet, and it's overall shape is consistent with a type of flaw I see occur fairly often right where this one may be; at the division between edge steel and body steel on pinched in or sandwiched edges. they sometimes seem puffed out, as if some impurity had become gaseous and exploded during forging????? Also, I don't think a bullet would penetrate at that angle; it might well make a dent, but I don't think it would bite in.....
In the art museum in Philadelphia is a 17th c. armour of the grand duke of Lithuania. In the chest without explanation is a smallish ragged hole; anyone know what that is; weird bullet hole? Corrosion from the back?

Ian · 18th March 2005, 02:09 PM

Did anyone else notice the seller registered with eBay in the last 30 days and has zero feedback? He has no selling history to check whether this blade was offered previously. Hmmmmm .....

Bill · 18th March 2005, 03:58 PM

Tom, just went to take more pics but no better images. Can't say it's a bullet, but it appears to me to show conciderable impact. There is a halo of slight indention surrounding the damage that almost shows the direction of the bullet. The thin but significant fractured piece was clearly damaged after the blades surface was complete. I have one of the first digital cameras that doesn't even show the mega-pixel on it. Any suggestions of what type of pixel & lens is good. Ian, have to think the seller doesn't want to be traced to the action.

BSMStar · 18th March 2005, 06:20 PM

I am no expert... here is my two cents worth. It appears the blade was backed by wood (like a 2X4) and shot with a rifle round (due to the kinetics and caliber, I think a 1911 would ding or shatter the blade before penetration... too big - too slow). It definitely appears to have been done deliberately (not due to combat... its too clean). I hope I did not spend more than my two cents.

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Tom, just went to take more pics but no better images. Can't say it's a bullet, but it appears to me to show conciderable impact. There is a halo of slight indention surrounding the damage that almost shows the direction of the bullet. The thin but significant fractured piece was clearly damaged after the blades surface was complete. I have one of the first digital cameras that doesn't even show the mega-pixel on it. Any suggestions of what type of pixel & lens is good. Ian, have to think the seller doesn't want to be traced to the action.

What if this: What if there were a cold shut inside the blade, and then later it got smacked with something small and hard-hitting (gotta admit a bullet is as good a candidate as I can come up with) on its surface at that particular area, knocking a hole out of the layer over the cold-shut, and further fracturing some more of it; possible I guess. The surface in the crater looks raggedy; not like bullet damage, really, so that and its overall jagged shape are what I'm trying to account for.

Rick · 19th March 2005, 12:26 AM

A shrapnel wound perhaps ?

Yannis · 19th March 2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Yannis, that's interesting, but what makes you think it's after-market? I could easily see it being a repair on a long welding flaw; a continuation of the very visible line that run out its ends; often so hard though, to tell damage from original flaws. Is it a plug or an overlay?

Tom,
It is a plug. I believe that is after market because I cant imagine a bladesmith selling this blade as new. If it was a fault so big (about 2.5 inches) an average bladesmith would throw this blade away.
I don’t know if it was a bullet or something else that done such damage to this blade. What I know is that the patch is excellent work.

18th March 2005, 01:55 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	You know, I've felt this concern the whole time we've discussed this topic; that is very very dangerous if there comes to be any benefit, aura of adventure, stink of blood, desireability to a bullet-struck sword, and unfurtuneately I think there is, because some soul less piece of nothing is going to shoot a hole in an old sword to help sell it. Now, young foolish people clanking old swords because "that's what they're for" or to get that "cool used look" for their own childish amusement is bad enough (and they usually are children who do this), but to wreak deliberate damage in order to tell a false tale of woe.....it's a bit like if a lawyer wasn't an ambulance chaser (too bad a good or loyal one never chased any of mine) but was setting up auto collisions and permanently injuring people just to create a business oportunity (come to think of it this does happen). It's just so way too bad that there is no limit to human intelligence nor stupidity; love nor evil; and any thing, no matter how off the wall, that you can think of, some idiot will do, and unfortuneately he may just be out there, listening for that dumb idea he's crazy enough to do and too stupid to come up with on his own........... What horrible creatures there are Last edited by tom hyle; 18th March 2005 at 11:11 PM.

18th March 2005, 02:07 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yannis, that's interesting, but what makes you think it's after-market? I could easily see it being a repair on a long welding flaw; a continuation of the very visible line that run out its ends; often so hard though, to tell damage from original flaws. Is it a plug or an overlay? Bill, I can't see the other surrounding crack you're talking about (as you predicted), but I don't know that it rules out a forging flaw; the raggedness of this hole does not seem consistent with a bullet, and it's overall shape is consistent with a type of flaw I see occur fairly often right where this one may be; at the division between edge steel and body steel on pinched in or sandwiched edges. they sometimes seem puffed out, as if some impurity had become gaseous and exploded during forging????? Also, I don't think a bullet would penetrate at that angle; it might well make a dent, but I don't think it would bite in..... In the art museum in Philadelphia is a 17th c. armour of the grand duke of Lithuania. In the chest without explanation is a smallish ragged hole; anyone know what that is; weird bullet hole? Corrosion from the back? Last edited by tom hyle; 18th March 2005 at 02:14 PM. Reason: removing gratuitous though well deserved commentary on Philadelphia

18th March 2005, 02:09 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	Is this a red flag? Did anyone else notice the seller registered with eBay in the last 30 days and has zero feedback? He has no selling history to check whether this blade was offered previously. Hmmmmm .....

19th March 2005, 12:26 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	A shrapnel wound perhaps ? Attached Images

18th March 2005, 06:15 AM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	think .44 mag would do that & that wasn't around then. The exit hole is perfect, solid flat hit

18th March 2005, 08:24 AM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Well what I remembered about this one, was that I followed the original auction, to later see it relisted in this auction (meaning once the item ended ebay had the note it had been relisted). For the original, I didnt see anything particularly exciting about the barong, and found the whole Datu line to be amusing. I am hoping that I was just not that observant the first time around. But well the first time around, there was absolutely no interest in this well labelled piece, and while my memory and observation skills are not the best, I cant help but be worried. Anyways, I hope I am wrong, but having never seen such precice damage before I am worried.

18th March 2005, 03:58 PM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Tom, just went to take more pics but no better images. Can't say it's a bullet, but it appears to me to show conciderable impact. There is a halo of slight indention surrounding the damage that almost shows the direction of the bullet. The thin but significant fractured piece was clearly damaged after the blades surface was complete. I have one of the first digital cameras that doesn't even show the mega-pixel on it. Any suggestions of what type of pixel & lens is good. Ian, have to think the seller doesn't want to be traced to the action.

18th March 2005, 06:20 PM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I am no expert... here is my two cents worth. It appears the blade was backed by wood (like a 2X4) and shot with a rifle round (due to the kinetics and caliber, I think a 1911 would ding or shatter the blade before penetration... too big - too slow). It definitely appears to have been done deliberately (not due to combat... its too clean). I hope I did not spend more than my two cents.