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10th December 2007, 04:02 AM
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#1 | |
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Quote:
Ganja "kelap lintah", or "wilut"? Or both are the same? These pictures are from Mr Bambang Harsri... Ganjawulung |
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10th December 2007, 06:40 AM
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#2 | |
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 Oh, well... I've read many books discussing ganja's types, and sometimes they didn't agree one another. BTW, which one is the distinct character of "kelap lintah" : the curled-end, or the 'double curve/undulation'? I have a ganja with double undulation, but without the curl. Should I call it wilut or kelap lintah ?  But strictly speaking, yes, according to Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the ganja we discuss is ganja wilut. Kelap lintah and wilut (and dungkul) are different forms of ganja. Which one is the distinct character of each types, some authors have different opinions. My previous post wasn't in accord with any specific opinion, and use 'kelap lintah' as a generic terminology which is commonly used to define any undulating ganja. If I'm not mistaken, kelap lintah and dungkul are also the names of dhapur. One of them (or both ?) is five luks. Let's wait for another picture(s) from mandukudi
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10th December 2007, 07:02 AM
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#3 |
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I reckon I'm with you on this one Pak Boedhi.
I only ever heard kelap lintah used by anybody for waved gonjos for years and years. Then a few years back I started to see all these other names in print, but all the people I knew still called all the waved gonjos of whatever type, "kelap lintah". I think that probably "kelap lintah" has become the generic---or maybe was always the generic, and those extremely knowledgeable experts---one of which I am not--- delight in using other names to distinguish one type of waved gonjo from another. Of course, this tends to become a little bit confusing when many of these experts are unable to agree on what is "correct", and what is not. |
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11th December 2007, 01:01 AM
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#4 | |
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Quote:
The distinction is probably based on the undulation of ganja's side view. Mr Moebirman in his book "Keris Senjata Pusaka" (Keris, Heirloom Weapon, 1970) only differed in two forms: (1) dungkul or dhungkul -- curved ganja, (2) ganja leser -- flat ganja. Mr Moebirman also mentioned -- ganja sebit lontar (not ron tal -- or tal leaf as Mr Haryono Guritno) But Mr Haryono Guritno in "Keris Jawa Antara Mistik dan Nalar" (2005) gave more details than Moebirman and also Bambang Harsrinuksmo, differing into 5 forms: (1) ganja sebit ron tal -- curved like tal or fan palm's leaf, (2) ganja wilut -- I supposed means "welut" or eel in English, (3) ganja dhungkul -- I don't know the litterally meaning of dhungkul, (4) ganja kelab -- not kelap -- lintah, the moving of leech.., (5) ganja sepang -- I don't have the litterally word for sepang. Haryono Guritno also differentiate the forms from upper or bottom view of ganjas (please look at second picture): (1) nguceng mati -- dead little fish, (2) nyebit ron tal -- or like torn fan-palm leaf, (3) nyirah cecak -- like small house lizard's head, (4) nyangkem kodok -- like frog's mouth, (5) nyirah tekek -- like big house lizard's head. It ought to be a visual discussion... Ganjawulung |
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11th December 2007, 07:00 AM
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#5 |
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It seems that while we wait for another pictures from Mandaukudi, we shall discuss some ganja's forms. I apologize to Pak Mandaukudi for 'hi-jacking' the thread, temporarily. Is it O.K. ?
Dear Mas Ganja, First of all, thank you for attaching pages from the famous Mr. Haryono's book, which unfortunately, not translated to English until now. Dhungkul, I read somewhere, means 'water buffalo's horn', but better to check it in Zoetmulder Dictionary. According to Mr Guritno's illustrations, Wilud and Dhungkul differ only in the curl. Kelab lintah, on the other hand, has two waves and a curl. If we follow the pattern, then there should be another ganja, with two waves, but without the curl. Should we call it in another name ? As Dhungkul and Wilud differ only in curl, why not? If we put some more critics on Guritno's book, based on two pages you had posted then here are some : 1. Where is 'ganja wuwung' ? It is a common shape of ganja from side view, which has a straightline silhouette/contour, likes the top of the roof. 2. I'd rather to put Ganja Sepang (I recall Guritno translated Sepang as 'sak pang' (java) means 'in/on the same branch/bough. see dhapur's meaning section) in "Ragam Tampak Atas Bentuk Ganja" (Ganja's shapes from top view), simply define it as 'Ganja sepang= ganja which has no head', that is, both end are tails, whether it has curl or not, waved or not. 3. I'd add another shape in Ganja's shape from top view, namely Ganja Regol=Ganja with two heads, simply the opposite of Ganja Sepang. It belongs to dhapur regol (and yuyurumpung ? if I'm not mistaken) which has two gandiks. Quite rare, but it do exist. 4. Ganja Nguceng Mati (4.15a) : which ones define the Nguceng Mati, the head, the tail or both ? I recall Harsrinuksmo define Nguceng Mati simply as ganja which have pointed end/tail, as the opposite of Ganja Mbuntut Urang=having 'shrimp tail', that is, square or slightly rounded tail. 5. The head of Ganja Nyangkem Kodhok (4.15d) and Nyirah Tekek (4.15e) on the illustrations are too big/exaggerated. Ganja's head directly connected to the size of gandhik, and ganja's belly (gendhok) directly connected to the thickness of the blade on bawang sebungkul part. As gandhik should never thicker than bawang sebungkul, so the head of ganja should never bigger/wider than the belly. Simply an anatomical things. While the ideas regarding the Nyangkem Kodhok and Nyirah Tekek are correct, ones should notice that he/she would be very unlikely to find the proportion of the heads as illustrated in reality. Please don't take it in the wrong way. Guritno's book is a good book. But we discuss something which naturally 'in dispute' amongs some expert. Guritno had to pick one opinion, or making a synthesis from some opinions. It's hard to satisfy evereyone. And frankly, I don't pay much attention on this disagreement. |
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12th December 2007, 12:27 AM
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#6 | |
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Quote:
I have the same question about "ganja wuwung" (I hope my first picture below is one example of that straight, no curved "ganja wuwung"). Why, not included. If I'm not mistaken, some (or many) keris with tangguh "old tuban" have such "ganja wuwung"... And another example (picture) on ganja sepang... Ganjawulung |
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12th December 2007, 12:52 AM
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#7 |
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... or this rusty one, is more "wuwung type" of ganja, Mas Boedhi? What is the specific form of "ganja wuwung"?
Ganjawulung |
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12th December 2007, 05:25 AM
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#8 | |
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Quote:
You have post some good examples on it. The most peculiar character of ganja wuwung is it's plain, straight edge, wheter it is parallel to the blade or slightly 'slanted' ( when the thickness of ganja on the front part/head is thinner than the back/tungkak. Usually no tungkakan). The slightly curved one is ganja sebit ron tal, also known as 'cecak nyander'=a slightly arched cecak lizard when it catches it's prey.
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