New stick to pick over.

Tim Simmons · 14th November 2007, 12:42 PM

Still looking for more finely made older sharpened examples but these show something of the form and AUS is a big place. The first link the example is 3cm longer than the thread starter. The second link the example is 9cm shorter.
http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/br112.html
http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/ct03.html

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2007, 11:14 PM

Hi Tim,
You always keep bringing in fascinating new entries from Africa, and it's great to learn more on the ever widening scope of weapons revealed from the cultures there thanks to you!
The fighting sticks are most interesting and I honestly know little about them aside from seeing something on them while researching the Sudanese 'haladie' some time ago. It is most interesting to see weapons of similar concept and presumably similar use coming from such vastly distant regions. The 'nulla nulla' you note from Australia, the 'haladie' which Stone notes in from Syria as well as found in the Sudan, and of course the buffalo horn 'madu' of India. While such vast distances suggest convergent evolution, it is tempting to consider early connections via trade in certain cases...although the Australian connection seems pretty remote

and probably unlikely of course.

Best regards,
Jim

fearn · 15th November 2007, 01:58 AM

Hi Jim,

I'm not sure about the convergence idea of poking someone with a sharp stick. It seems pretty intuitive to me

That said, I'm not comfortable with this item being a nulla. Those are usually fairly primitive, and this one looks like it might have been on a lathe at some point.

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2007, 03:18 AM

Good point Fearn!!!

I was thinking more of the double pointed ends and the idea of using it held in the center, if that was indeed how it was used. I'm obviously not real familiar with these so kinda thinking out loud. As I've noted, Tim's threads and unusual African items are always a welcome learning experience!
All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 15th November 2007, 07:34 AM

Clearly this is African, I was trying only to make a comparison to an AUS Aboriginal weapon I have seen a "version" of Nulla. Here is a quick sketch of the stick weapon I have seen in the past. Sadly untill somebody comes up with one or I find one in a book or a collection the drawing may as well be a Pooh stick.

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2007, 02:24 PM

Hi Tim,
That is much more like the example I had seen in the earlier research where I considered the similarity to the madu and haladie. I wish I could think of where it was I saw it , but it was definitely African tribe using them! The memory slips outa gear more often these days!

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 16th November 2007, 11:33 AM

It is here and I think it is fabulous but I like this sort of thing, at four portions a real snip. This picture gives some idea of the feel of the thing. How about a right hook in the neck just under your jaw bone. Nice

katana · 16th November 2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

Those are usually fairly primitive, and this one looks like it might have been on a lathe at some point.

Hi Fearn,
it does seem likely that this was turned on a lathe, however primative lathes have been around for centuries, one of the earliest know was around 1300 BC in Ancient Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polelathe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_turning

Regards David

katana · 16th November 2007, 05:46 PM

There is a version of this double ended 'club' from the Gilbert Isles, the picture is not to clear but seems to have 'cut rings' similar to Tim's.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=13

Tim Simmons · 16th November 2007, 06:20 PM

The grip section is egg shaped. This ovoid section follws most of the weapon not reaching any true round cross section.

Tim Simmons · 16th November 2007, 06:41 PM

This is along the same lines just not as fancy and 10cm longer but they do say it is a throwing club where as my stick is for stabbing at close quarter.
http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/zo...3.16.119_b.jpg

16th November 2007, 05:46 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	There is a version of this double ended 'club' from the Gilbert Isles, the picture is not to clear but seems to have 'cut rings' similar to Tim's. http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=13 Attached Images

16th November 2007, 06:41 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	This is along the same lines just not as fancy and 10cm longer but they do say it is a throwing club where as my stick is for stabbing at close quarter. http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/zo...3.16.119_b.jpg Last edited by Tim Simmons; 16th November 2007 at 06:53 PM.

14th November 2007, 12:42 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Still looking for more finely made older sharpened examples but these show something of the form and AUS is a big place. The first link the example is 3cm longer than the thread starter. The second link the example is 9cm shorter. http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/br112.html http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/ct03.html

14th November 2007, 11:14 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Hi Tim, You always keep bringing in fascinating new entries from Africa, and it's great to learn more on the ever widening scope of weapons revealed from the cultures there thanks to you! The fighting sticks are most interesting and I honestly know little about them aside from seeing something on them while researching the Sudanese 'haladie' some time ago. It is most interesting to see weapons of similar concept and presumably similar use coming from such vastly distant regions. The 'nulla nulla' you note from Australia, the 'haladie' which Stone notes in from Syria as well as found in the Sudan, and of course the buffalo horn 'madu' of India. While such vast distances suggest convergent evolution, it is tempting to consider early connections via trade in certain cases...although the Australian connection seems pretty remote and probably unlikely of course. Best regards, Jim

15th November 2007, 01:58 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, I'm not sure about the convergence idea of poking someone with a sharp stick. It seems pretty intuitive to me That said, I'm not comfortable with this item being a nulla. Those are usually fairly primitive, and this one looks like it might have been on a lathe at some point.

15th November 2007, 03:18 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Good point Fearn!!! I was thinking more of the double pointed ends and the idea of using it held in the center, if that was indeed how it was used. I'm obviously not real familiar with these so kinda thinking out loud. As I've noted, Tim's threads and unusual African items are always a welcome learning experience! All best regards, Jim

15th November 2007, 07:34 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Clearly this is African, I was trying only to make a comparison to an AUS Aboriginal weapon I have seen a "version" of Nulla. Here is a quick sketch of the stick weapon I have seen in the past. Sadly untill somebody comes up with one or I find one in a book or a collection the drawing may as well be a Pooh stick.

15th November 2007, 02:24 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Hi Tim, That is much more like the example I had seen in the earlier research where I considered the similarity to the madu and haladie. I wish I could think of where it was I saw it , but it was definitely African tribe using them! The memory slips outa gear more often these days! Best regards, Jim

16th November 2007, 11:33 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	It is here and I think it is fabulous but I like this sort of thing, at four portions a real snip. This picture gives some idea of the feel of the thing. How about a right hook in the neck just under your jaw bone. Nice

16th November 2007, 06:20 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	The grip section is egg shaped. This ovoid section follws most of the weapon not reaching any true round cross section.