Greneng

drdavid · 14th November 2007, 10:21 AM

Might I ask those with more experience if examples of keris from the older collections all exhibit the same form of greneng. It seems that modern keris often carry the dha character shape (or multiples of it) in the greneng but was that always the case? If early keris with greneng have very similar shapes in the greneng as currently that may lead us in one direction, if they varied significantly that would possibly have different implications.
DrD

kronckew · 14th November 2007, 11:51 AM

i am of course, less experienced in this area than most of y'all, but maybe from the outside can offer another view. i can also easily make a fool of myself, but what the heck, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

while not very informed on the subtle definitions of the greneng, which needs to be defined for us new members, and assuming the original poster was basically talking about the ORIGINAL FUNCTION of the notched area at the top of the blade near the ganjah, i note that the rencong also has similar notches cut into the similar area, and in fact on the rear side of the area where your fingers can come in contact on mine (they're sharp little devils too).

the kudi/kujang also has decorative notches on the top of the blade, on my pre-islamic one, they are well forward, over the 3 holes.

10.5 in. blade kujang - 9in. blade rencong

zoomed

european blades frequently have decorative filework notches cut into the blade spine, scots blades are also frequently notched

4 in. weidmannsheil hunter

could it just be that they are decorative items that have evolved into fancy forms & have become 'traditional' in some areas, adding more esoteric interpretations in later ages.

as not all kris blades have them, and some non-kris blades have them, i'd think that if they had a definite non-decorative kris specific function then all kris would have them to some extent, however they are apparently optional.

occam's razor (razors generally come without greneng

)?

David · 14th November 2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the kudi/kujang also has decorative notches on the top of the blade, on my pre-islamic one, they are well forward, over the 3 holes.

european blades frequently have decorative filework notches cut into the blade spine, scots blades are also frequently notched

could it just be that they are decorative items that have evolved into fancy forms & have become 'traditional' in some areas, adding more esoteric interpretations in later ages.

as not all kris blades have them, and some non-kris blades have them, i'd think that if they had a definite non-decorative kris specific function then all kris would have them to some extent, however they are apparently optional.

occam's razor (razors generally come without greneng

)?

Your kudi looks like a fairly modern piece to me, not pre-Islamic.

Greneng is certainly much more developed than the notches found on European blades and the form does look very much like the Dha letter it is reputed to represent. It seems to me that they are much more than just decoration.
Keris were/are made on many different levels for many different classes of people and for various purposes. I don't find it surprising therefore that some keris have greneng while others do not.

Raden Usman Djogja · 14th November 2007, 09:07 PM

dearest kerislovers,

bear in mind when you trace pre-islamic ages, perhaps it is better not only to refer hindhuism and bundhism but also JAWAISM. by doing this, hopefully, we are not trapped in the condition: "free from tiger mouth fall in crocodile mouth"

notice that to know greneng must to know the context of pre-islamic era is brilliant. BUT it is still in the middle of expedition. the rest seems harder

take care,
Usmen

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2007, 09:51 PM

It is tempting to think of the very first, original expression of the greneng as a purely ornamental device, it is difficult to argue against this, as it is obvious that to say such a thing never happened, and never could have happened we would need knowledge of every keris ever produced, prior to the widespread use of the greneng as a feature in the keris.

However, once we reach the point where we can see a distinct form in the greneng, and we see this repeated in a number of blades, irrespective of the quality of the blade, I am very reluctant to accept mere ornamentation as an explanation.Most especially so when that form can be aligned with a form existing in Javanese script.

In fact, when we consider the 16th and 17th century examples in European collections, and compare these with examples in Jawa that are supposedly from this period, and earlier periods, it seems possible that in blades where complex ricikan were used , their addition to the blade was not the product of a gradual development process, but rather all the features were added at one time, or at least within a span of time that was relatively short.

To my mind, this indicates a planned process for an intended purpose.

Yes David, the Hindu faith was present in early Jawa, but it was not the Hindu faith as practiced in its homeland. It was Jawa-Hindu, which was a syncretic form of the faith incorporating indigenous Javanese elements and a parralelism with the practice of Buddhism. Not really a particularly easy subject to come to terms with, but an understanding of what was going on in the religious sphere at this time is essential before we can begin hypothesizing in respect the keris and its features.

Let us not forget that a culture and society consists of more than just its religious beliefs. We need also to try to gain an understanding of the other elements involved .

We must not think of early Javanese society as a Hindu culture. It was not. It was Javanese culture with overlays of foriegn belief systems that had been accepted, absorbed, and altered to fit the host society.

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2007, 10:26 PM

Kai, I'm sorry, I noted your remarks after I posted my most recent comments.

In respect of my comment that:-

"---In light of these two factors, I believe that the assumption is reasonable that the greneng, along with some other ricikan of the modern Javanese keris, first appeared during the Majapahit era.---"

Kai, here I am making an assumption, that is , it is something that I am asking to be accepted without proof.

This would be a non sequitur if I had presented it as a statement, or a conclusion, and had relied upon my previous remarks in an effort to validate that statement or conclusion, but with an assumption I am not required to validate or prove anything.Thus, we cannot say my assumption does not logically follow from the previous remarks:- it does not need to logically follow, as it is presented as an assumption, not a conclusion, which of course should be able to be supported.

If we were to take the line that my assumption is not a reasonable assumption, then we would need to mount an argument to demonstrate the reasons for it not being reasonable. We cannot dismiss it, as we can an illogical conclusion, by simply saying that something does not logically follow from something else.

However, setting this aside, you raise the question:- "---Why couldn't some kind of greneng have evolved earlier?---"

Yes, it could have, but taking into consideration the time span nominated for the appearance of the greneng, it seems exceptionally unlikely that it could have appeared earlier. The Majapahit era can be taken to stretch from around 1290 through to around 1525. These are extremes, and the core period was much shorter. If we look at the keris form that most probably existed prior to about 1300 we find that those forms have not yet commenced development into the form of the Modern Keris. It is only with the Modern Keris that we find multiple complex ricikan.

Yes, there are examples of the early Modern Keris that do not have greneng nor ron dha, and lack other ricikan. This inclusion of specific ricikan is part of the system of dhapur, so the inclusion or not of specific ricikan depends upon the dhapur that has been created.

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2007, 11:36 PM

Regarding the form of the greneng.(Dr. David)

Keris from different periods carry ron dha of differing shapes, those shapes supposedly can be aligned to the form of the letter "dha" at various periods.

Keris from some areas outside Jawa, and keris of village manufacture from within Jawa very often have very approximate renditions of both greneng and ron dha.

The greneng can take a number of forms, but in a Javanese keris the various forms will always contain at least one rondha.Early keris with greneng do have similar component features expressed within the greneng, but the composition can vary from one keris to another. To give a definitive answer to this, one would really need to examine all these old European-held blades at the same time. Photos, even the very best photos, are not really good enough, in my opinion. I think that very probably it would be able to be shown that early expressions of the greneng carry very much the same features as later expressions of the greneng, however, with later Surakarta keris I feel that we begin to see some artistic improvisation that was not present in earlier periods.

14th November 2007, 10:21 AM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Might I ask those with more experience if examples of keris from the older collections all exhibit the same form of greneng. It seems that modern keris often carry the dha character shape (or multiples of it) in the greneng but was that always the case? If early keris with greneng have very similar shapes in the greneng as currently that may lead us in one direction, if they varied significantly that would possibly have different implications. DrD Last edited by drdavid; 14th November 2007 at 10:35 AM.

14th November 2007, 11:51 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	i am of course, less experienced in this area than most of y'all, but maybe from the outside can offer another view. i can also easily make a fool of myself, but what the heck, nothing ventured, nothing gained. while not very informed on the subtle definitions of the greneng, which needs to be defined for us new members, and assuming the original poster was basically talking about the ORIGINAL FUNCTION of the notched area at the top of the blade near the ganjah, i note that the rencong also has similar notches cut into the similar area, and in fact on the rear side of the area where your fingers can come in contact on mine (they're sharp little devils too). the kudi/kujang also has decorative notches on the top of the blade, on my pre-islamic one, they are well forward, over the 3 holes. 10.5 in. blade kujang - 9in. blade rencong zoomed european blades frequently have decorative filework notches cut into the blade spine, scots blades are also frequently notched 4 in. weidmannsheil hunter could it just be that they are decorative items that have evolved into fancy forms & have become 'traditional' in some areas, adding more esoteric interpretations in later ages. as not all kris blades have them, and some non-kris blades have them, i'd think that if they had a definite non-decorative kris specific function then all kris would have them to some extent, however they are apparently optional. occam's razor (razors generally come without greneng )?

14th November 2007, 09:07 PM	#4
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	dearest kerislovers, bear in mind when you trace pre-islamic ages, perhaps it is better not only to refer hindhuism and bundhism but also JAWAISM. by doing this, hopefully, we are not trapped in the condition: "free from tiger mouth fall in crocodile mouth" notice that to know greneng must to know the context of pre-islamic era is brilliant. BUT it is still in the middle of expedition. the rest seems harder take care, Usmen

14th November 2007, 09:51 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	It is tempting to think of the very first, original expression of the greneng as a purely ornamental device, it is difficult to argue against this, as it is obvious that to say such a thing never happened, and never could have happened we would need knowledge of every keris ever produced, prior to the widespread use of the greneng as a feature in the keris. However, once we reach the point where we can see a distinct form in the greneng, and we see this repeated in a number of blades, irrespective of the quality of the blade, I am very reluctant to accept mere ornamentation as an explanation.Most especially so when that form can be aligned with a form existing in Javanese script. In fact, when we consider the 16th and 17th century examples in European collections, and compare these with examples in Jawa that are supposedly from this period, and earlier periods, it seems possible that in blades where complex ricikan were used , their addition to the blade was not the product of a gradual development process, but rather all the features were added at one time, or at least within a span of time that was relatively short. To my mind, this indicates a planned process for an intended purpose. Yes David, the Hindu faith was present in early Jawa, but it was not the Hindu faith as practiced in its homeland. It was Jawa-Hindu, which was a syncretic form of the faith incorporating indigenous Javanese elements and a parralelism with the practice of Buddhism. Not really a particularly easy subject to come to terms with, but an understanding of what was going on in the religious sphere at this time is essential before we can begin hypothesizing in respect the keris and its features. Let us not forget that a culture and society consists of more than just its religious beliefs. We need also to try to gain an understanding of the other elements involved . We must not think of early Javanese society as a Hindu culture. It was not. It was Javanese culture with overlays of foriegn belief systems that had been accepted, absorbed, and altered to fit the host society.

14th November 2007, 10:26 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Kai, I'm sorry, I noted your remarks after I posted my most recent comments. In respect of my comment that:- "---In light of these two factors, I believe that the assumption is reasonable that the greneng, along with some other ricikan of the modern Javanese keris, first appeared during the Majapahit era.---" Kai, here I am making an assumption, that is , it is something that I am asking to be accepted without proof. This would be a non sequitur if I had presented it as a statement, or a conclusion, and had relied upon my previous remarks in an effort to validate that statement or conclusion, but with an assumption I am not required to validate or prove anything.Thus, we cannot say my assumption does not logically follow from the previous remarks:- it does not need to logically follow, as it is presented as an assumption, not a conclusion, which of course should be able to be supported. If we were to take the line that my assumption is not a reasonable assumption, then we would need to mount an argument to demonstrate the reasons for it not being reasonable. We cannot dismiss it, as we can an illogical conclusion, by simply saying that something does not logically follow from something else. However, setting this aside, you raise the question:- "---Why couldn't some kind of greneng have evolved earlier?---" Yes, it could have, but taking into consideration the time span nominated for the appearance of the greneng, it seems exceptionally unlikely that it could have appeared earlier. The Majapahit era can be taken to stretch from around 1290 through to around 1525. These are extremes, and the core period was much shorter. If we look at the keris form that most probably existed prior to about 1300 we find that those forms have not yet commenced development into the form of the Modern Keris. It is only with the Modern Keris that we find multiple complex ricikan. Yes, there are examples of the early Modern Keris that do not have greneng nor ron dha, and lack other ricikan. This inclusion of specific ricikan is part of the system of dhapur, so the inclusion or not of specific ricikan depends upon the dhapur that has been created.

14th November 2007, 11:36 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Regarding the form of the greneng.(Dr. David) Keris from different periods carry ron dha of differing shapes, those shapes supposedly can be aligned to the form of the letter "dha" at various periods. Keris from some areas outside Jawa, and keris of village manufacture from within Jawa very often have very approximate renditions of both greneng and ron dha. The greneng can take a number of forms, but in a Javanese keris the various forms will always contain at least one rondha.Early keris with greneng do have similar component features expressed within the greneng, but the composition can vary from one keris to another. To give a definitive answer to this, one would really need to examine all these old European-held blades at the same time. Photos, even the very best photos, are not really good enough, in my opinion. I think that very probably it would be able to be shown that early expressions of the greneng carry very much the same features as later expressions of the greneng, however, with later Surakarta keris I feel that we begin to see some artistic improvisation that was not present in earlier periods.