Greneng

drdavid · 9th November 2007, 09:02 PM

Some excellent ideas here gentlemen. t_c having grasped a few of my keris in response to your answer I think it is very sound and suspect that stopping your hand sliding down onto the blade is a very practical 'form follows function' explanation...and perhaps that the idea of preventing slip was then extrapolated into the more exciting and gory theory of diverting blood to prevent slip. The carvings of the greneng could deflect or turn an attacking blade slightly I'm sure but like you I really doubt that could be used to catch a blade or twist it from the attackers hand.
Freebooter your map of the archipeligo theory is very very interesting indeed, and bears more thinking about.
Penangsang II thanks for the insight on fighting tradition, I have not found much information in the texts on how these were used in their heyday (I respect the fact that there are martial artists who have developed a method of combat using keris in the modern era but we dont really know that that was the original method). I have been told that the keris was used commonly as a weapon of stealth, a quick thrust before the victim knew what was coming and then the attacker was away. If that was the usage then the need for building an elaborate defence strategy into the keris would be minimal.
drd

kronckew · 10th November 2007, 08:53 AM

just to mix the batch a bit, the moro kris has a similar construction, (possibly the overall design was already 'locked' from it's indonesian roots by the time it evolved into the moro version?), though used for the cut rather than the thrust, and other moro weapons designed for the cut may or may not have a guard capable of preventing such slippage even though the blade is capable of such.

the grips on most malay/indonesian keris i've seen (tho not all) are more like a push dagger where the grip itself would prevent sliding down the blade even without a guard, also ensuring the weapon cannot slide out of your hand in the opposite direction, and even guardless filipino weapons tend to have a bulbous, or hooked pommel end to prevent that slippage away from the blade even if there is no guard preventing slippage towards it...

scandinavian knives traditionally have a guardless form, a child is given a knife with a guard however, and a sign of his coming of age is when he learns how to use a knife without one even under slippery conditions cleaning game or fish, or the occasional human.

spanish knives, khyber knives, choora, canary knives, gaucho knives all solve the sliding on thrust problem by having an offset grip in line with the spine, with the swell in the blade below the grip preventing the hand and fingers from sliding forward, and most people i've heard discussing those also indicate it offers some ability to deflect an incoming attack and protect the fingers if not the whole forearm...

the decorative notch near the grip (kaudi or cho) of a kukhri has also been described by some as a blood deflector, sword catcher, etc. but the main conclusions about it's purpose and origins are that no one really knows. a kukhri is not really one without it tho. the same goes for the kris, which is incomplete without the ganja/greneng.

David · 10th November 2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

Some excellent ideas here gentlemen. t_c having grasped a few of my keris in response to your answer I think it is very sound and suspect that stopping your hand sliding down onto the blade is a very practical 'form follows function' explanation...

This might explain the function of gonjo itself, but not the greneng per se.

drdavid · 11th November 2007, 01:24 AM

You are absolutely correct David, the slippage bit is gonjo function not greneng function.
Perhaps if I might ask another question of those with greater historical understanding, when did the highly stylised greneg first appear? Is it apparent early in the post keris buda era or is it a significantly later arrival? Understanding this may give some clues.
DrD

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2007, 06:45 AM

This matter of how, when , where, and why the greneng first appeared on the keris is one of the really big, and really important questions of keris development. There can be no doubt that in the material culture of humanity form does follow function. A need arises, and the object is created to satisfy this need.

In the case of function following form, the object already exists, and is adapted to a new function; examples of function following form would be the back of an axe used to drive nails, the side of a knife used to crush garlic, a motor vehicle used as a weapon. The axe was made to chop wood, the knife to cut something, the motor vehicle as a means of transport, but human ingenuity adapted these things and turned other of their qualities to a different purpose, a purpose for which they had not originally been designed.

If we can accept that a thing comes into existence to satisfy a need, then the first question we must ask in respect of the greneng on the keris is what was the need for this feature?

Before we can answer this we must ask what was the function of the keris at the time when the greneng first appeared. If form follows function then we need to know the function of the keris and why this particular form of the keris was necessary, at the time when it first began to appear.

We know beyond any doubt that in its initial form the keris was primarily a weapon, however, over an extended period of time this weapon developed into forms that differed from its original form, and during this period of development it also acquired characteristics and a nature which perhaps were not attached to its original form.In simple terms, the nature of the keris varies, depending upon the time and place where it is found.

I would like to suggest that the keris in Jawa, at the time when the greneng first appeared, may have already commenced its development as a symbol of the male element, and a cultural icon. As such, its function was more than that of just a simple weapon. Thus it follows that the function of all of its parts was also more than the function of elements of weaponry.

The question that follows from this is:- when did the greneng first appear?

The simple answer is that we do not know with any certainty.

However, it does seem reasonable to assume that the incorporation of the greneng into keris design occurred after the beginning of the 14th century, and as a part of the development of the archaic form of the keris, into the modern form of the keris.

The keris is quite different to any other weapon of which I have knowledge:- it is first and foremost a weapon, but in some applications it has a nature that is the essence of the indigenous culture of the Jawa/Bali nexus. As a weapon it has the nature of a destroyer, but as the pusaka keris it also has the nature of a binding element that can bring together the disparate elements of a kin group, or of a kingdom. Thus it embodies the duality that is at the core of this culture. Above all, it is the symbol of the male element in both the small world in which we live, and within the entirety of creation.

Because of the complex nature of the keris, we cannot look for one dimensional answers.

I am of the opinion that the greneng, and its integral parts, were added to the keris to satisfy a percieved need associated with its function as something other than a weapon.

So yes, form does follow function, but the function of the keris at the time the greneng was added to it had already begun to move from that of a simple weapon.

ganjawulung · 12th November 2007, 03:15 AM

GRENENG

I think dr David proposed us a very interesting topic to discuss. Yes, not all the Javanese keris bears details of “greneng”. But this specific detail has its importance in the development of (Javanese) keris culture.

Greneng usually found in keris with luks, although some straight (lurus) dhapurs of Javanese keris do have this detail. I tried to note from an existed list of about 212 dhapurs in Javanese keris (let me lend the list of dhapurs’ details, of Mr Haryono Guritno, “Keris Jawa, Antara Mistik dan Nalar”, page 172-179), some 109 out of them (about more than a half) with “greneng”. Mostly keris dhapur with luks. (From 94 straight dhapurs out of 212, only 46 have detail of “greneng”, or less than half of those 94 straight dhapurs have “greneng”). There may be of course, more than 212 keris dhapurs in Javanese keris.

And this is my personal view on “greneng”. Javanese like to “speak” with symbolism. As do in keris too. So, beside the nature of keris as a weapon, keris is also the symbol of their small world. (Beside the nature of keris as a weapon, it is also a “sipat kandel”, or “medium of someone’s confidence”). So it is not surprising, if the Javanese tried to put symbols of life, their small world, on the details of keris.

All details of keris, from tip to the bottom of keris, bear this life symbolism. And they express their symbolism in “natural language” (The javanese speak more with heart, emotion, than with logical reasoning).

Let us talk the details from the tip of keris. There are at least four kinds of keris tip’s forms: (1) Nggabah Kopong or like empty rice grain, (2) Mbuntut Tumo of like the tail of human hair’s louse, (3) Ngudhup Gambir, or like the ‘Gambir’ flower’s bud, (4) Nyujen of sharp pointed like the tip of ‘Suji’s” leaf. (Please, see the illustration).

The details of the ‘gandhik’ (front-bottom of the keris) also mentioned with this “natural” way. The “sekar kacang” (like the peanut’s flower, or like the trunk of elephant). Also the details surround the “sekar kacang”, like “jalu memet” or cock’s spur, “lambe gajah” or like the lips of elephant… The keris itself, is the symbol of a human body. If you lay the keris with the handle upright, than the handle is the “head” of the human body, and the whole blade of keris is the body.

And the part of “wadidang” or rear-bottom of keris? This is quite “strange”, because some keris have two “dha” forms (the javanese may call these details as rong dha or two dha, or let you spell it in easier way as “ron dha”). “Dha” is the 12th alphabet in the javanese scripture or what people called as “caraka-script”. (Please see the illustrations below).

Yes, the big question is why they depicted the “dha” scripture in the “greneng”, and not the other javanese alphabet? And why two “dha”, and even “four dha” in the “greneng susun” or “greneng robyong”? And maybe the next question is, like dr David’s question: what is the purpose of “greneng”?

Ganjawulung

Newsteel · 13th November 2007, 12:37 AM

Just wondering. Like another example in malay armoury, the arabic word "Alif, Lam Alif , Ha' would have their insight meaning and 'defensive or invincible properties' in Tasawuf and Sufism teachings.

Would this also may have similar connection in olden Javanese alphabets?

ganjawulung · 13th November 2007, 05:58 AM

IDENTITY IN GRENENG

There were some Javanese warriors which were known wearing keris, not for weapon but for “sipat kandel” (medium of self confidence). They were Pangeran Diponegoro during the Diponegoro Rebellion war in 1825-1830 and General Soedirman before the Indonesian independence in 1945. But they only wore keris in his belt, in front of their belly, but never used as weapon. Pangeran Diponegoro – in many depictions – used sword as his weapon (and also for commanding his troop), while General Soedirman use pistol as his main weapon for self defending.

Beside as a sipat kandel, keris is also a part of the owner’s identity. Sultan Hamengku Buwono IX had once commissioned keris to Empu Djeno in the 20th century, kerises with dhapur Jangkung Mangkunegara (three luks), and some tombaks or spears. The Sultan commissioned Jangkung Mangkunegara with certain degree of “condhong leleh” (the inclination of keris blade).

And this is just illustration, that I quoted from Mr Haryono Guritno, the writer of Keris Jawa Antara Mistik dan Nalar. I found it is interesting. Mr Guritno wrote quite comprehensive on some kinds of greneng. He wrote too “greneng” as part of “identity” of the maker. Like a specific signature of the maker. (Please see the illustration).

The “greneng” was copied from real kerises which was made by certain empus in 19th and 20th century. From the illustration, you may see the “signature” of certain empu in the form of greneng, such as (1) Empu Braja Setika, (2) Empu Singa Wijaya, (3) Empu Jaya Sukadga, (4) Empu Wira Sukadga, (5) Unknown Empu, and (6) Empu Djapan…

Were the forms of greneng “dha” from Javanese alphabet, or “Alif” as mentioned by Newsteel in the previous post, that is still an interesting discussion…

Ganjawulung

10th November 2007, 08:53 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	just to mix the batch a bit, the moro kris has a similar construction, (possibly the overall design was already 'locked' from it's indonesian roots by the time it evolved into the moro version?), though used for the cut rather than the thrust, and other moro weapons designed for the cut may or may not have a guard capable of preventing such slippage even though the blade is capable of such. the grips on most malay/indonesian keris i've seen (tho not all) are more like a push dagger where the grip itself would prevent sliding down the blade even without a guard, also ensuring the weapon cannot slide out of your hand in the opposite direction, and even guardless filipino weapons tend to have a bulbous, or hooked pommel end to prevent that slippage away from the blade even if there is no guard preventing slippage towards it... scandinavian knives traditionally have a guardless form, a child is given a knife with a guard however, and a sign of his coming of age is when he learns how to use a knife without one even under slippery conditions cleaning game or fish, or the occasional human. spanish knives, khyber knives, choora, canary knives, gaucho knives all solve the sliding on thrust problem by having an offset grip in line with the spine, with the swell in the blade below the grip preventing the hand and fingers from sliding forward, and most people i've heard discussing those also indicate it offers some ability to deflect an incoming attack and protect the fingers if not the whole forearm... the decorative notch near the grip (kaudi or cho) of a kukhri has also been described by some as a blood deflector, sword catcher, etc. but the main conclusions about it's purpose and origins are that no one really knows. a kukhri is not really one without it tho. the same goes for the kris, which is incomplete without the ganja/greneng. Last edited by kronckew; 10th November 2007 at 09:24 AM.

12th November 2007, 03:15 AM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Why Rong Dha? GRENENG I think dr David proposed us a very interesting topic to discuss. Yes, not all the Javanese keris bears details of “greneng”. But this specific detail has its importance in the development of (Javanese) keris culture. Greneng usually found in keris with luks, although some straight (lurus) dhapurs of Javanese keris do have this detail. I tried to note from an existed list of about 212 dhapurs in Javanese keris (let me lend the list of dhapurs’ details, of Mr Haryono Guritno, “Keris Jawa, Antara Mistik dan Nalar”, page 172-179), some 109 out of them (about more than a half) with “greneng”. Mostly keris dhapur with luks. (From 94 straight dhapurs out of 212, only 46 have detail of “greneng”, or less than half of those 94 straight dhapurs have “greneng”). There may be of course, more than 212 keris dhapurs in Javanese keris. And this is my personal view on “greneng”. Javanese like to “speak” with symbolism. As do in keris too. So, beside the nature of keris as a weapon, keris is also the symbol of their small world. (Beside the nature of keris as a weapon, it is also a “sipat kandel”, or “medium of someone’s confidence”). So it is not surprising, if the Javanese tried to put symbols of life, their small world, on the details of keris. All details of keris, from tip to the bottom of keris, bear this life symbolism. And they express their symbolism in “natural language” (The javanese speak more with heart, emotion, than with logical reasoning). Let us talk the details from the tip of keris. There are at least four kinds of keris tip’s forms: (1) Nggabah Kopong or like empty rice grain, (2) Mbuntut Tumo of like the tail of human hair’s louse, (3) Ngudhup Gambir, or like the ‘Gambir’ flower’s bud, (4) Nyujen of sharp pointed like the tip of ‘Suji’s” leaf. (Please, see the illustration). The details of the ‘gandhik’ (front-bottom of the keris) also mentioned with this “natural” way. The “sekar kacang” (like the peanut’s flower, or like the trunk of elephant). Also the details surround the “sekar kacang”, like “jalu memet” or cock’s spur, “lambe gajah” or like the lips of elephant… The keris itself, is the symbol of a human body. If you lay the keris with the handle upright, than the handle is the “head” of the human body, and the whole blade of keris is the body. And the part of “wadidang” or rear-bottom of keris? This is quite “strange”, because some keris have two “dha” forms (the javanese may call these details as rong dha or two dha, or let you spell it in easier way as “ron dha”). “Dha” is the 12th alphabet in the javanese scripture or what people called as “caraka-script”. (Please see the illustrations below). Yes, the big question is why they depicted the “dha” scripture in the “greneng”, and not the other javanese alphabet? And why two “dha”, and even “four dha” in the “greneng susun” or “greneng robyong”? And maybe the next question is, like dr David’s question: what is the purpose of “greneng”? Ganjawulung Attached Images

13th November 2007, 05:58 AM	#8
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Identity IDENTITY IN GRENENG There were some Javanese warriors which were known wearing keris, not for weapon but for “sipat kandel” (medium of self confidence). They were Pangeran Diponegoro during the Diponegoro Rebellion war in 1825-1830 and General Soedirman before the Indonesian independence in 1945. But they only wore keris in his belt, in front of their belly, but never used as weapon. Pangeran Diponegoro – in many depictions – used sword as his weapon (and also for commanding his troop), while General Soedirman use pistol as his main weapon for self defending. Beside as a sipat kandel, keris is also a part of the owner’s identity. Sultan Hamengku Buwono IX had once commissioned keris to Empu Djeno in the 20th century, kerises with dhapur Jangkung Mangkunegara (three luks), and some tombaks or spears. The Sultan commissioned Jangkung Mangkunegara with certain degree of “condhong leleh” (the inclination of keris blade). And this is just illustration, that I quoted from Mr Haryono Guritno, the writer of Keris Jawa Antara Mistik dan Nalar. I found it is interesting. Mr Guritno wrote quite comprehensive on some kinds of greneng. He wrote too “greneng” as part of “identity” of the maker. Like a specific signature of the maker. (Please see the illustration). The “greneng” was copied from real kerises which was made by certain empus in 19th and 20th century. From the illustration, you may see the “signature” of certain empu in the form of greneng, such as (1) Empu Braja Setika, (2) Empu Singa Wijaya, (3) Empu Jaya Sukadga, (4) Empu Wira Sukadga, (5) Unknown Empu, and (6) Empu Djapan… Were the forms of greneng “dha” from Javanese alphabet, or “Alif” as mentioned by Newsteel in the previous post, that is still an interesting discussion… Ganjawulung Attached Images

9th November 2007, 09:02 PM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Some excellent ideas here gentlemen. t_c having grasped a few of my keris in response to your answer I think it is very sound and suspect that stopping your hand sliding down onto the blade is a very practical 'form follows function' explanation...and perhaps that the idea of preventing slip was then extrapolated into the more exciting and gory theory of diverting blood to prevent slip. The carvings of the greneng could deflect or turn an attacking blade slightly I'm sure but like you I really doubt that could be used to catch a blade or twist it from the attackers hand. Freebooter your map of the archipeligo theory is very very interesting indeed, and bears more thinking about. Penangsang II thanks for the insight on fighting tradition, I have not found much information in the texts on how these were used in their heyday (I respect the fact that there are martial artists who have developed a method of combat using keris in the modern era but we dont really know that that was the original method). I have been told that the keris was used commonly as a weapon of stealth, a quick thrust before the victim knew what was coming and then the attacker was away. If that was the usage then the need for building an elaborate defence strategy into the keris would be minimal. drd

11th November 2007, 01:24 AM	#4
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	You are absolutely correct David, the slippage bit is gonjo function not greneng function. Perhaps if I might ask another question of those with greater historical understanding, when did the highly stylised greneg first appear? Is it apparent early in the post keris buda era or is it a significantly later arrival? Understanding this may give some clues. DrD

11th November 2007, 06:45 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	This matter of how, when , where, and why the greneng first appeared on the keris is one of the really big, and really important questions of keris development. There can be no doubt that in the material culture of humanity form does follow function. A need arises, and the object is created to satisfy this need. In the case of function following form, the object already exists, and is adapted to a new function; examples of function following form would be the back of an axe used to drive nails, the side of a knife used to crush garlic, a motor vehicle used as a weapon. The axe was made to chop wood, the knife to cut something, the motor vehicle as a means of transport, but human ingenuity adapted these things and turned other of their qualities to a different purpose, a purpose for which they had not originally been designed. If we can accept that a thing comes into existence to satisfy a need, then the first question we must ask in respect of the greneng on the keris is what was the need for this feature? Before we can answer this we must ask what was the function of the keris at the time when the greneng first appeared. If form follows function then we need to know the function of the keris and why this particular form of the keris was necessary, at the time when it first began to appear. We know beyond any doubt that in its initial form the keris was primarily a weapon, however, over an extended period of time this weapon developed into forms that differed from its original form, and during this period of development it also acquired characteristics and a nature which perhaps were not attached to its original form.In simple terms, the nature of the keris varies, depending upon the time and place where it is found. I would like to suggest that the keris in Jawa, at the time when the greneng first appeared, may have already commenced its development as a symbol of the male element, and a cultural icon. As such, its function was more than that of just a simple weapon. Thus it follows that the function of all of its parts was also more than the function of elements of weaponry. The question that follows from this is:- when did the greneng first appear? The simple answer is that we do not know with any certainty. However, it does seem reasonable to assume that the incorporation of the greneng into keris design occurred after the beginning of the 14th century, and as a part of the development of the archaic form of the keris, into the modern form of the keris. The keris is quite different to any other weapon of which I have knowledge:- it is first and foremost a weapon, but in some applications it has a nature that is the essence of the indigenous culture of the Jawa/Bali nexus. As a weapon it has the nature of a destroyer, but as the pusaka keris it also has the nature of a binding element that can bring together the disparate elements of a kin group, or of a kingdom. Thus it embodies the duality that is at the core of this culture. Above all, it is the symbol of the male element in both the small world in which we live, and within the entirety of creation. Because of the complex nature of the keris, we cannot look for one dimensional answers. I am of the opinion that the greneng, and its integral parts, were added to the keris to satisfy a percieved need associated with its function as something other than a weapon. So yes, form does follow function, but the function of the keris at the time the greneng was added to it had already begun to move from that of a simple weapon.

13th November 2007, 12:37 AM	#7
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	Just wondering. Like another example in malay armoury, the arabic word "Alif, Lam Alif , Ha' would have their insight meaning and 'defensive or invincible properties' in Tasawuf and Sufism teachings. Would this also may have similar connection in olden Javanese alphabets?