Greneng

drdavid · 7th November 2007, 08:23 PM

Alan, you are correct I am talking about the original purpose. If we take the 'form follows function' approach there should be a reason it is like it is. Thanks for clarifying my question
cheers
David

Gavin Nugent · 7th November 2007, 09:58 PM

Hi, all that I have learnt of the Kris is relatively new to me from study and an elderly friend who spent a very long time in and out of Bali in the 70's and 80's with the people who inhabited a 10th century water temple far removed from the tourist Mecca we all know of today. From all that I have read and learnt first had from those who have travelled there is that it is entirely form before funtion with regards to these knives.
From all that I can gather from my talks with Max, the Kris and every part of it is all a spiritual connotation, much like the importance of the Gajah in their culture which it also found on Kris knives as are other "items" that are held with great importance like the Naga and many others I have seen on old blades.
I have always said to Max how much the Genang side of a Kris reminds me of the Indonesian Archipelago and I am only surmising that Genang being a city in this Island chain is represented on the blade, it may be how it all came about, or this ideal of mine may go back further and hence this is how the city received it's name. If anyone can touch on the origins of the city of Genang, here may be the answers....

Hold your Kris knives up against the map in the link below and tell me what you think? I beleive the line between Ganja and the main blade of the Kris represents the break between the major islands which would put Genang in the correct position on the blade.
http://www.traveljournals.net/explor...51/genang.html

regards

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 7th November 2007, 10:07 PM

Interesting!

Gavin Nugent · 7th November 2007, 10:12 PM

Yep, I go off on a tangent sometimes and think too much but I think there is a thesis there for either myself or someone who wants to get the jump on me with further research, heck maybe someone wants to help me with it and get an honouree doctorate

Gav

PS I think I had a moment of madness and dropped the "r" from the Grenang to get Genang, though there still maybe be some validity to these mad thoughts

t_c · 8th November 2007, 07:06 AM

I agree with you DrD about #1 and #2. If you will indulge a little speculation: judging from how the keris is held, I would surmise that the intention was to simply keep the hand from slipping down the blade on a thrust if one's grip slipped. I think it would feel better to put solid pressure on the hand there than at the fingers. It would also make sense that it would protect the users hand when parring an opponents weapon with the blade (assuming this was a strategy with a keris), the decoration acting as a "sword catcher" in the sense that a blade couldn't skip or slide past that area and onto the forearm, but I can't see getting enough leverage out of it to disarm or catch a blade though.

Tom

PenangsangII · 9th November 2007, 11:10 AM

I would say no. 3 - the signature of an empu that can be translated these days as marketing ploy. I am quite sceptical about sword catcher theory as according to Malay keris fighting tradition, keris is not to be parried against another keris or other edged weapon for that matter.

drdavid · 9th November 2007, 09:02 PM

Some excellent ideas here gentlemen. t_c having grasped a few of my keris in response to your answer I think it is very sound and suspect that stopping your hand sliding down onto the blade is a very practical 'form follows function' explanation...and perhaps that the idea of preventing slip was then extrapolated into the more exciting and gory theory of diverting blood to prevent slip. The carvings of the greneng could deflect or turn an attacking blade slightly I'm sure but like you I really doubt that could be used to catch a blade or twist it from the attackers hand.
Freebooter your map of the archipeligo theory is very very interesting indeed, and bears more thinking about.
Penangsang II thanks for the insight on fighting tradition, I have not found much information in the texts on how these were used in their heyday (I respect the fact that there are martial artists who have developed a method of combat using keris in the modern era but we dont really know that that was the original method). I have been told that the keris was used commonly as a weapon of stealth, a quick thrust before the victim knew what was coming and then the attacker was away. If that was the usage then the need for building an elaborate defence strategy into the keris would be minimal.
drd

7th November 2007, 10:12 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Yep, I go off on a tangent sometimes and think too much but I think there is a thesis there for either myself or someone who wants to get the jump on me with further research, heck maybe someone wants to help me with it and get an honouree doctorate Gav PS I think I had a moment of madness and dropped the "r" from the Grenang to get Genang, though there still maybe be some validity to these mad thoughts Last edited by freebooter; 8th November 2007 at 04:46 AM.

7th November 2007, 08:23 PM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Alan, you are correct I am talking about the original purpose. If we take the 'form follows function' approach there should be a reason it is like it is. Thanks for clarifying my question cheers David

7th November 2007, 09:58 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	View of a novice, just one angle Hi, all that I have learnt of the Kris is relatively new to me from study and an elderly friend who spent a very long time in and out of Bali in the 70's and 80's with the people who inhabited a 10th century water temple far removed from the tourist Mecca we all know of today. From all that I have read and learnt first had from those who have travelled there is that it is entirely form before funtion with regards to these knives. From all that I can gather from my talks with Max, the Kris and every part of it is all a spiritual connotation, much like the importance of the Gajah in their culture which it also found on Kris knives as are other "items" that are held with great importance like the Naga and many others I have seen on old blades. I have always said to Max how much the Genang side of a Kris reminds me of the Indonesian Archipelago and I am only surmising that Genang being a city in this Island chain is represented on the blade, it may be how it all came about, or this ideal of mine may go back further and hence this is how the city received it's name. If anyone can touch on the origins of the city of Genang, here may be the answers.... Hold your Kris knives up against the map in the link below and tell me what you think? I beleive the line between Ganja and the main blade of the Kris represents the break between the major islands which would put Genang in the correct position on the blade. http://www.traveljournals.net/explor...51/genang.html regards Gavin Last edited by freebooter; 7th November 2007 at 10:17 PM.

7th November 2007, 10:07 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,995	Interesting!

8th November 2007, 07:06 AM	#5
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	I agree with you DrD about #1 and #2. If you will indulge a little speculation: judging from how the keris is held, I would surmise that the intention was to simply keep the hand from slipping down the blade on a thrust if one's grip slipped. I think it would feel better to put solid pressure on the hand there than at the fingers. It would also make sense that it would protect the users hand when parring an opponents weapon with the blade (assuming this was a strategy with a keris), the decoration acting as a "sword catcher" in the sense that a blade couldn't skip or slide past that area and onto the forearm, but I can't see getting enough leverage out of it to disarm or catch a blade though. Tom

9th November 2007, 11:10 AM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I would say no. 3 - the signature of an empu that can be translated these days as marketing ploy. I am quite sceptical about sword catcher theory as according to Malay keris fighting tradition, keris is not to be parried against another keris or other edged weapon for that matter.

9th November 2007, 09:02 PM	#7
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Some excellent ideas here gentlemen. t_c having grasped a few of my keris in response to your answer I think it is very sound and suspect that stopping your hand sliding down onto the blade is a very practical 'form follows function' explanation...and perhaps that the idea of preventing slip was then extrapolated into the more exciting and gory theory of diverting blood to prevent slip. The carvings of the greneng could deflect or turn an attacking blade slightly I'm sure but like you I really doubt that could be used to catch a blade or twist it from the attackers hand. Freebooter your map of the archipeligo theory is very very interesting indeed, and bears more thinking about. Penangsang II thanks for the insight on fighting tradition, I have not found much information in the texts on how these were used in their heyday (I respect the fact that there are martial artists who have developed a method of combat using keris in the modern era but we dont really know that that was the original method). I have been told that the keris was used commonly as a weapon of stealth, a quick thrust before the victim knew what was coming and then the attacker was away. If that was the usage then the need for building an elaborate defence strategy into the keris would be minimal. drd