Scottish Dirk from Anne

[David]

Jim, you might be right, sgian dubh might be the right name here, but without demensions i was a little uncertain about the actual size of this knife. How big is it Bill? (the knife i mean )

[kronckew]

bill, looks familiar somehow still looks nice.

for the rest of y'all for reference, here's one i posted earlier that appears to be made out of the tip of a sword blade whose age/provenance i do not know, also with knobbly stag, and it's little 5in bladed great grandson skian dubh with a guard.

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

bill, looks familiar somehow still looks nice.

for the rest of y'all for reference, here's one i posted earlier that appears to be made out of the tip of a sword blade whose age/provenance i do not know, also with knobbly stag, and it's little 5in bladed great grandson skian dubh with a guard.

When you say 5" are you referring to overall or just the blade.A 5" blade would seem a bit excessive for a sgian dubh.

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all, here's my sghian dubh, made this a couple of years ago, it's my work knife now. Damascus blade, shagreen scabbard, bog oak hilt with brass fittings and Iona marble. I think your sghian dubh is a "daytime wear" piece Bill, antler hilted blades were worn during the day, more elaborate pieces were for formal occasions (that antler hilt is awesome!) I'm of Maclean descent myself...

[Jim McDougall]

Amazing set there Kronckew! The upper one looks like a Scottish shashka!!
OK OK I know, a guy could get kilt for cracks like that!! Just kidding.
Usually I dont get that goofy unless I've had a respectable bit of Drambuie,as in the incident several years ago that led to the unfortunate tulwar waving incident. This event took out the ceiling fan in my den!

Seriously though, I agree with David on the size of the sgian dubh, as most of these were 3-4 " , but later examples, who knows. The antler hilted knife really is attractive, and unusual. It was quite common to utilize broken basket hilt blades to fashion many of these, and these items together comprise the 'gralloch' set for hunting use in butchering and skinning.

Its great to see Scottish weapons posted, they dont come up too often here, although they indeed are within the ethnographic scope.

I always thought the spelling on these was interesting, Dubh = black or dark.
When working on my family geneology I discovered that the correct Gaelic spelling of my name was MacDhubghaill. I decided to leave it like it is obviously....people have enough trouble pronouncing it as it is!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Lew]

Bill

That is a sweet little knife. It probably is a companion knife to a larger hunting sword or half of a trousse set of eating utensils?

Congrats

Lew

[t_c]

That's a nice little blade.
I have heard that skean dubh were named so due to the fact that they were a "boot" knife and meant for a stab in the back vs. what one might regard as a fair fight, hence the "dark" connotation, but the ones I have seen (modern pieces) are usually made with a black or dark wood handle which makes me wonder. Anyone know the meaning or history behind the name?

Rand:
I believe "shear steel" implies that it was forged from an old pair of shears, but I'm not sure on this.

[Pukka Bundook]

Nice little useful knife Bill.

I believe the "black knife was named so, because of the colour of the hilt,...normally black wood. Nothing to say antler is wrong though!

Skian dubh was I think a small utility knife, that would be used for eating, gralloching your deer, or whatever, and that in later years was worn for display in top of the stocking (sock!.)

I read somewhere that originally they were often carried inside the waiscoat.

If you wish to duplicate this nice aged antler colour, leather dye in medium or dark brown will do a very fair job.

TC,
Shear steel is I believe a type of cast steel, much used for cutlery and saws.


Richard.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The upper one looks like a Scottish shashka!!

Jim

I don't know why Jim, but every time you post you fire up a memory that keeps me up until I follow it through??? Must be that free association thing.

Your observation above may not be as far fetched as you think! Rev J. A. Wylie in his History of the Scottish Nation London 1886 devotes chapter 20 in Volume I to "The Cradle of the Scots in Scythia". As you know it is the descendants of the Scythians that are the shashkaophiles (if that is a word).
A few quotes of Wylie's such as "Almost all ancient testimony points to Scythia as the original cradle of the Scottish race." He goes on to explain that both the names Scots and Scyths signify the the same thing namely an archer or bowman.
Further... "King Alfred, in his translation of Bede, and other writers of that time, use Scytisk for Scottish, so that Scyt and Scot were synonymous. Several of the classic writers do the same thing, making use of Scythia and Scotia and Scyth and Scot alternatively. The Irish writers uniformly say that the Scots were Scythians... "
I have absolutely no idea if his theorys still hold water, and I doubt that this is usefull in any way, but, At least now I can go to bed

All the Best
Jeff

[kronckew]

the celts, of which the scots (and maybe scythians) were members, had a broad range from the steppes thru to ireland and on south to iberia, galetia in southern poland, 'gaul' in france and galetia in northern spain were all celtic. in some respects more advanced than their roman neighbors who feared them. they were not 'civilised' in the original meaning , they did not live in cities, 'civis', but had a village and tribal based confederation. the romans proceeded to demolish that, and the results were written down by the romans, not the celts, so our knowledge of them is reduced.

my maternal grandmother was an austrian galetian from somewhere between cracow and vienna. that area is one of the most fought over areas of the world, and the term 'ethnic cleansing' should have originated there. the scythians were likely celts, one of the recent 'king arthur' films used scythian archers as auxilliary troops stationed at hadrians wall as the arthurian knights and woad painted celts as their allies against the saxon (sax meaning 'sword', the 'angles' were spearmen - they eventually mingled into the anglo-saxons) invaders as rome pulled back the legions. might be closer to tha mark than we think (i'm looking forward to the latest 'last legion' flick when i can get to see it.)

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by David

When you say 5" are you referring to overall or just the blade.A 5" blade would seem a bit excessive for a sgian dubh.

the blade is 4.75" & 1.25 wide at the guard, it's only 1/8 in. or so thick but the back is nicely file worked in lines and scallops for 4in. down the spine like a lot of skean dubh & scots weaponry, the last 3/4 in. is double edged. the grip is 4.375", it has an oval guard 1.5x0.75x.125 there is a circular non-magnetic white metal pommel inset into the end of the stag. the blade appears to be hardened stainless steel in that there is no sign of any corrosion or patina, same on the guard & bolster, my magnet is strongly attracted to them tho. i do not think there is any age to this knife. i used the term skean dubh a bit tongue in cheek as it is a bit big tho i've seen 5in. skean dubh blades from custom makers, they probably are normally around 3.5 in., and the guard is not a feature of the black knives i've seen. i still like it tho. i think it's a skean, the dubh part is unlikely .

the longer one is fairly basic, the spine is essentially straight tho the last 4in. or so depart upwards about an eighth of an inch to give a slight overall curvature, there is a slight swelling of the blade thickness just as it enters the stag. i am not sure what kind of tang it has bit the end of the grip has a small peened steel pin that may be the end of the tang. the blade is 17.25in. long, grip just under 3.5in. and blade is 15/16in. wide at the grip, & about 3/16in thick (roughly 5mm) & is quite springy, distally tapering down, the last 4-5 in. has a false edge on the spine.. the fullers are forged in, not ground. scabbard did not survive unfortunately.

[rand]

Hey Bill,

The Scottish arms have always been a favorite of mine...... Your birthday present dagger has a great mark of "Mclay" stamped on the blade that adds so much character and history to a knife. The off-set handle was a good point to mention as it does improve the comfort of carrying in different manners. The color of the stag horn handle is also appealing as its showing its color change with time. Enjoy your new dagger.....

What is "shear steel"?

rand

[asomotif]

Bill,

I will surely show this thread to my wife, X-mas comming in sight real soon

As for the use of the knife. The shape looks nice for cutting small vegetables, but it probably needs some sharpening which I am not in favour of.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by David

Jim, you might be right, sgian dubh might be the right name here, but without dimensions i was a little uncertain about the actual size of this knife. How big is it Bill? (the knife i mean )

Yark, yark! (dry laugh, don't try to translate from some obscure language)

The knife is about 7" long

Thanks for all the great replies. I have learned a lot from all, but Particularly from Alan and Spiral.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff!!
Thats amazing! I had never heard of that particular reference to Scythians and Scots, and perhaps Kronckew's comment on the Celtic association may concur with that intriguing anthropology. I cant believe the amazing references you seem to have command of!!! Outstanding!

I was of course kidding with the shashka note, and absolutely delighted with this very fascinating information you have brought in! Hey, maybe this Drambuie stuff really works!! .....but now you've really triggered it, and I'll be the one not sleeping I thought I had finished the old MacDhubghaill geneology but looks like theres a whole new dimension.

Thanks so much Jeff!

Bill,
I've learned a lot on this thread too, especially with Jeff's note on an aside from the knife itself and Kronkews addition, and as you note with Spirals great note on sheared steel. Alan's comments are as always extremely well placed and insightful, and I especially appreciate his attention to my questions on dudgeon and boxwood. In all, great input from everyone on the thread, and again, I'm really glad that you shared this interesting example to initiate this thread!! Thank you very much.

All best regards,
Jim