Inscriptions in Navajas, for Chris and who else

Chris Evans · 6th November 2007, 12:07 AM

Hi Fernando,

Thank you for that very informative essay on navajas in Portugal. Did the Portuguese also have to suffer the same weapon bans as the Spaniards in the 18th century?

Cheers
Chris

Gavin Nugent · 6th November 2007, 05:25 AM

Nice to see another lovely item Fernando, I too would hold it dear if I had it in my collection. and the story behind it's find even more so. I beleive we are all the same here in respect to wanting to improve our knowledge and enhance our collections.
I have written here the script on the Alero Garcia blade but it all makes no sense to me.
"Cuando acaricia mi mano la cacha de esta navaja hast los valientes tiem lau al ver mis bravos hauzanas"

The cursive script is hard to read but that's what I got.

Many thanks too Fernando, for posting the navaja sayings, without it I might just have passed this wonderful sight by in further search of such notes I was looking for.
And Cylord21, thanks for bringing the King of Spanish folders to light in the closed forum you presented.
I have my eyes on a genumine Romani folder too guys, if I am successful in obtaining it I will be sure to include it here, though saying that, I have no kidney to sell as I traded one for the large blade I have and it looks like I may have to starve for a month to get it, but it will be worth it...any food donations can be sent to me via the vikingsword staff......

Marc · 6th November 2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Nice to see another lovely item Fernando, I too would hold it dear if I had it in my collection. and the story behind it's find even more so. I beleive we are all the same here in respect to wanting to improve our knowledge and enhance our collections.
I have written here the script on the Alero Garcia blade but it all makes no sense to me.
"Cuando acaricia mi mano la cacha de esta navaja hast los valientes tiem lau al ver mis bravos hauzanas"

The cursive script is hard to read but that's what I got.

Many thanks too Fernando, for posting the navaja sayings, without it I might just have passed this wonderful sight by in further search of such notes I was looking for.
And Cylord21, thanks for bringing the King of Spanish folders to light in the closed forum you presented.
I have my eyes on a genumine Romani folder too guys, if I am successful in obtaining it I will be sure to include it here, though saying that, I have no kidney to sell as I traded one for the large blade I have and it looks like I may have to starve for a month to get it, but it will be worth it...any food donations can be sent to me via the vikingsword staff......

I'm sorry for not participating more actively in this thread, extremely busy, these days, but, nonetheless...

"Cuando acaricia mi mano la cacha de esta navaja hast los valientes tiem lau al ver mis bravos hauzanas"

After a bit of "clean up", this would probably read (or wanted to read, "creative" orthography in these texts having already been mentioned as something characteristic):

"Cuando acaricia mi mano la cacha de esta navaja hasta los valientes tiemblan al ver mis bravas hazañas"

Which would translate, more or less, as:

"When my hand caresses the side slab of this navaja even the brave tremble when seeing my valiant feats"

Here "side slab" is used, by extension, as synonymous of "handle, hilt". In cutlery, a "cacha" is one of the slabs of horn or wood (or other material: mother-of-pearl, plastic, micarta, you name it) applied to the side of the hilt of a knife. On a related note, you can also find it applied to the slabs used in the sides of a revolver or other hand-guns. Hence its use, by extension, to design the handle or hilt of a knife or a gun.

By the way, about the term "vibora"... in Spain it usually designs a definitely poisonous snake, a viper. "Serpiente" is used as the generic term for snakes, with "culebra" being also used sometimes as a generic, although this last term usually designs snakes of the non-poisonous variety. Here, "cobra" is used for the hooded, non-native and more exotic poisonous variety.
"Víbora" is also not rarely seen applied to women with a particularly sharp tongue and a inclination for cruelty, but let's better not go there...

I hope this helps a bit...

Best,
Marc

fernando · 6th November 2007, 10:15 AM

I Freebooter,

No need to thank
My willing to help and please others, is surely greater than my knowledge of things

.

This is a raw translation of what i reach so far:

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

"Cuando acaricia mi mano la cacha de esta navaja hast los valientes tiem lau al ver mis bravos hauzanas"

When the grip plates of this navaja caress my hand, even the valiants have ? at watching my brave ?

I will try and dig into the two missing terms ...maybe they are either misspelled or very old ... maybe even allegoric.
...Maybe Chris can decipher them?!

All the best
Fernando

fernando · 6th November 2007, 10:21 AM

Oh, Marc has just came in with the Cavalry.
Thank you Marc, for giving a hand.
Fernando

Chris Evans · 6th November 2007, 10:59 AM

Hi freebooter&Fernando

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh, Marc has just came in with the Cavalry.
Thank you Marc, for giving a hand.
Fernando

I don't think that I can do any better than Marc, in fact, I think that he hit the nail on the head. Congratulations Marc and well done. How did you manage to link "hauzanas" with "hazañas"?

The only thing that surprises me is that given that navaja was probably made after WWI, that the fellow responsible for the inscription couldn't spell/write any better than that. Had it been a 19th century piece, it would have been on par for the course, but 1920s or even later? Never mind, Freebooter, you have a very interesting piece there. I have not seen any such "heroic"scripts on post 1900/WWI navajas. Most carry the ubiquitous "Recuerdo de..." because by that time largish navajas ceased to play a significant social role and were bought mostly by tourists - Urbanization and law enforcement took care of that. Also such a broad blade was not what was wanted in a knife that may have had to be opened in anger.

Cheers
Chris

Gavin Nugent · 6th November 2007, 05:01 PM

Well done and many thanks Fernando and Marc.
Upon reading your post Marc and seeing how the letters should be formed I can see where my interpritation of the cursive script took a wrong turn. If I can weave some camera magic I will endevour to get some images of the script on the larger blade for everyone to view, though it is lost in places.
I am also trying to find a PDF file I have here some where which is an article from the New York times in 1908 writing about the government "raiding" major culters in Spain and confiscating any blade longer than 6 inches due to the carnage across the country. If anyone does have a copy of this article feel free to post it before I do. I will also, when time permits, scan an image of Albecete knife cutlers I have in a reference book.
Chris, I will post a few images of the Alvero Garcia blade too, maybe the makers stamp and style of etching and fittings can reveal more about it's age. Maybe, just maybe it is pre 1908????
PS "Viper" sits better with me in the grand scheme of things.

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 6th November 2007, 05:24 PM

Enjoy the reading fellow enthusiasts.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...CF&oref=slogin

I'd be interested in hearing any feedback regarding this article.

Gav

fernando · 6th November 2007, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

I don't think that I can do any better than Marc, in fact, I think that he hit the nail on the head. Congratulations Marc and well done. How did you manage to link "hauzanas" with "hazañas"?

Thats the advantage of having the language actually corporised. You can infer, even despite mispellings, instead of only try to realize the construction of the term with the letters available. I would never make it. The Portuguese word for it is "façanhas", the spelling makes the difference.
Glad Marc saved the situation

.
Fernando

Chris Evans · 7th November 2007, 02:19 AM

Hi Gav,

First, allow me to thank you for that wonderful contribution of yours by way of that newspaper article. It adds significantly to our sum total of knowledge.

Now down to work:

1. Re The Article: That newspaper article smacked a bit of sensationalism - But then, what's new?. In Spain there were regularly issued edicts going back to the early 1700s restricting all kinds of weapons and their manufacture - In fact, it was on account of these laws that navajas came into being. Forton tells us that by the end of the 18th century so strong was the persecution of cutlers that the industry in Spain became a mere shadow of its former self; This opened the flood gates to French imports during the 19th century.

1.1 The stringent laws referred to in the article were passed in November 1907 and further reiterated in 1923, 1929, 1935 and 1941. I include the wording in Spanish at the end of this post.

1.2 What we don't know is the consistency with which these laws were enforced. There is little doubt that probably for economic reasons and political instability in the 19th century, enforcement was more lax in some areas and times than others. However, we do know by the prevalence to this day of navajas without any locks that they were enforced - Inconsistently, yes, but nevertheless enforced. From the importation figures of the 19th century folders, the vast majority without locks, we have every reason to believe that the locking navaja was anything but normative.

1.3 What I found interesting is the description of the Spanish fight/duel. I always held the suspicion that far from being deadly fights, "mano a mano" they were events of ritualized posturing with little if any blood shed. I have had chance to observe this first hand in Sth America, where the same tradition prevailed. Of course it is not easy to prove that this was indeed the case and the incidence of violent crime clouds the issue. However, this article reinforced my belief in this matter.

2. Re Your Navaja:

2.1 It is extremely difficult to date navajas with accuracy. All we can do is take clues from the following:

- Era in which the cutler was active; And
- typology, manufacturing methods used, materials etc.

We do know that the external spring, "muelle de teja" appeared around 1900, so it can't be any earlier. We also know from pieces in collections that Spanish blades up to that time tended towards being slender and pointed. After the turn of the century they rapidly became broader, somewhat aligning with the earlier French imports that on the whole reflected a utilitarian design - And this suggests a later date.

We have already covered the issue of grinds, so I won't repeat it here.

One possible way to narrow down the time frame is to find out which year did the manufacturer cease to use the "Alvaro Garcia" brand on their blades. Did his son continue using it? You could try writing to the industry body in Albacete, APRECU. This is their website: http://www.cibercuchilleria.com/in/inicio.asp

2.2 I for one would love to see more photos of your navaja. Especially that of the engraving. For that matter, of any other navajas that you may have.

Cheers
Chris

Here is the wording is Spanish:

Ante las reiteradas consultas que se formulan al Ministerio de la Gobernación sobre cuáles son armas prohibidas y cuáles las permitidas en España, la Real Orden de 9 de noviembre de 1907, a fin de evitar errores en el futuro, señala en su articulado: "son prohibidos los bastones de estoque o con chuzo u otra arma blanca oculta en su interior, así como los puñales de cualquier clase que fueren; las navajas con punta de más de quince centímetros de longitud comprendido el mango y los cuchillos de monte y caza, que sólo podrán ser vendidos a quienes presenten licencia, la cual sólo se expedirá a los que realmente la ejerciten". Esta Real Orden deja al prudente arbitrio de las autoridades "elapreciar si el portador de cuchillos, herramientas, utensilios o instrumentos precisos en usos domésticos, industria, arte, oficio o profesión tiene o no necesidad de llevarlos consigo, según la ocasión, momento o circunstancias; debiendo en general estimar innecesario e ilícito el que traigan las concurrentes a tabernas y establecimientos públicos y lugares de recreo o esparcimiento, sobre todo tratándose de individuos que hubiesen sufrido condena o corrección por faltas contra las personas y por uso indebido de armas".

The full article can be downloaded from:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...n&ct=clnk&cd=1

6th November 2007, 05:25 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Fernando Nice to see another lovely item Fernando, I too would hold it dear if I had it in my collection. and the story behind it's find even more so. I beleive we are all the same here in respect to wanting to improve our knowledge and enhance our collections. I have written here the script on the Alero Garcia blade but it all makes no sense to me. "Cuando acaricia mi mano la cacha de esta navaja hast los valientes tiem lau al ver mis bravos hauzanas" The cursive script is hard to read but that's what I got. Many thanks too Fernando, for posting the navaja sayings, without it I might just have passed this wonderful sight by in further search of such notes I was looking for. And Cylord21, thanks for bringing the King of Spanish folders to light in the closed forum you presented. I have my eyes on a genumine Romani folder too guys, if I am successful in obtaining it I will be sure to include it here, though saying that, I have no kidney to sell as I traded one for the large blade I have and it looks like I may have to starve for a month to get it, but it will be worth it...any food donations can be sent to me via the vikingsword staff......

6th November 2007, 05:24 PM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Here's the PDF link for the 1908 article Enjoy the reading fellow enthusiasts. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...CF&oref=slogin I'd be interested in hearing any feedback regarding this article. Gav

6th November 2007, 12:07 AM	#1
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Fernando, Thank you for that very informative essay on navajas in Portugal. Did the Portuguese also have to suffer the same weapon bans as the Spaniards in the 18th century? Cheers Chris

6th November 2007, 10:21 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh, Marc has just came in with the Cavalry. Thank you Marc, for giving a hand. Fernando

6th November 2007, 05:01 PM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Well done and many thanks Fernando and Marc. Upon reading your post Marc and seeing how the letters should be formed I can see where my interpritation of the cursive script took a wrong turn. If I can weave some camera magic I will endevour to get some images of the script on the larger blade for everyone to view, though it is lost in places. I am also trying to find a PDF file I have here some where which is an article from the New York times in 1908 writing about the government "raiding" major culters in Spain and confiscating any blade longer than 6 inches due to the carnage across the country. If anyone does have a copy of this article feel free to post it before I do. I will also, when time permits, scan an image of Albecete knife cutlers I have in a reference book. Chris, I will post a few images of the Alvero Garcia blade too, maybe the makers stamp and style of etching and fittings can reveal more about it's age. Maybe, just maybe it is pre 1908???? PS "Viper" sits better with me in the grand scheme of things. Gav

7th November 2007, 02:19 AM	#10
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Gav, First, allow me to thank you for that wonderful contribution of yours by way of that newspaper article. It adds significantly to our sum total of knowledge. Now down to work: 1. Re The Article: That newspaper article smacked a bit of sensationalism - But then, what's new?. In Spain there were regularly issued edicts going back to the early 1700s restricting all kinds of weapons and their manufacture - In fact, it was on account of these laws that navajas came into being. Forton tells us that by the end of the 18th century so strong was the persecution of cutlers that the industry in Spain became a mere shadow of its former self; This opened the flood gates to French imports during the 19th century. 1.1 The stringent laws referred to in the article were passed in November 1907 and further reiterated in 1923, 1929, 1935 and 1941. I include the wording in Spanish at the end of this post. 1.2 What we don't know is the consistency with which these laws were enforced. There is little doubt that probably for economic reasons and political instability in the 19th century, enforcement was more lax in some areas and times than others. However, we do know by the prevalence to this day of navajas without any locks that they were enforced - Inconsistently, yes, but nevertheless enforced. From the importation figures of the 19th century folders, the vast majority without locks, we have every reason to believe that the locking navaja was anything but normative. 1.3 What I found interesting is the description of the Spanish fight/duel. I always held the suspicion that far from being deadly fights, "mano a mano" they were events of ritualized posturing with little if any blood shed. I have had chance to observe this first hand in Sth America, where the same tradition prevailed. Of course it is not easy to prove that this was indeed the case and the incidence of violent crime clouds the issue. However, this article reinforced my belief in this matter. 2. Re Your Navaja: 2.1 It is extremely difficult to date navajas with accuracy. All we can do is take clues from the following: - Era in which the cutler was active; And - typology, manufacturing methods used, materials etc. We do know that the external spring, "muelle de teja" appeared around 1900, so it can't be any earlier. We also know from pieces in collections that Spanish blades up to that time tended towards being slender and pointed. After the turn of the century they rapidly became broader, somewhat aligning with the earlier French imports that on the whole reflected a utilitarian design - And this suggests a later date. We have already covered the issue of grinds, so I won't repeat it here. One possible way to narrow down the time frame is to find out which year did the manufacturer cease to use the "Alvaro Garcia" brand on their blades. Did his son continue using it? You could try writing to the industry body in Albacete, APRECU. This is their website: http://www.cibercuchilleria.com/in/inicio.asp 2.2 I for one would love to see more photos of your navaja. Especially that of the engraving. For that matter, of any other navajas that you may have. Cheers Chris Here is the wording is Spanish: Ante las reiteradas consultas que se formulan al Ministerio de la Gobernación sobre cuáles son armas prohibidas y cuáles las permitidas en España, la Real Orden de 9 de noviembre de 1907, a fin de evitar errores en el futuro, señala en su articulado: "son prohibidos los bastones de estoque o con chuzo u otra arma blanca oculta en su interior, así como los puñales de cualquier clase que fueren; las navajas con punta de más de quince centímetros de longitud comprendido el mango y los cuchillos de monte y caza, que sólo podrán ser vendidos a quienes presenten licencia, la cual sólo se expedirá a los que realmente la ejerciten". Esta Real Orden deja al prudente arbitrio de las autoridades "elapreciar si el portador de cuchillos, herramientas, utensilios o instrumentos precisos en usos domésticos, industria, arte, oficio o profesión tiene o no necesidad de llevarlos consigo, según la ocasión, momento o circunstancias; debiendo en general estimar innecesario e ilícito el que traigan las concurrentes a tabernas y establecimientos públicos y lugares de recreo o esparcimiento, sobre todo tratándose de individuos que hubiesen sufrido condena o corrección por faltas contra las personas y por uso indebido de armas". The full article can be downloaded from: http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...n&ct=clnk&cd=1