Inscriptions in Navajas, for Chris and who else

Gavin Nugent · 2nd November 2007, 01:38 PM

Thanks Chris, and sorry to everyone for a repedative blog, seems I added it three times....newbie to this.

I have uploaded a few photos of the large navaja and will add more of my navajas when time permits. I have also added an image of a framed collection I put together and various images I have on file of my Toledo navaja in the frame.

In the framed collection, all navaja are approx 16 inches long.

The top navaja is very unusual and I have no idea as to date or region, though I am thinking continental, first quater on the 20th century, it is a very well crafted knife, ring pull to top, razor sharp high carbon blade, aluminium handle with hard wood inserts and brass bolsters

The second in made by Alvero Garcia of Albecete, another razor sharp blade with floral decoratons to both sides and a Spanish inscription I have not yet even thought to deciper, though I will shortly and keep those who are interested updated. It is a very wide blade and has a large number of rachet teeth too, I wouldn't consider this blade loose at all but it does flick nicely in the hand.

The third is not Navaja but a mexican knife of the old wild west, marked C Camaren, just framed up for interest sake.

The Fourth has not locking mechanism at all, personally I think this may have been an apprentice peice???? crafted without the locking part of the blade in error, hence no locking assembly on the top of it. It has an extremely thick spine, heavy pointy and razor sharp blade (nearly took my whole finger off, hence it is framed now!!) , marked C.A and a strange little symbol above this. It sports the most beautiful high polish horn handle.

The fifth is a mid-late 20th century navaja with imitation mother of pearl grips.

With regards to the 6th one, a Toledo navaja, I beleive it to be late 1800s very early 1900s, though I one chap here in Australia said it to be a very modern tourist item...anyone have any take on these opinions. It has outstanding deep etched or chisled releif all over the blade and handle, it of an all metal construction and has Spanish inscriptions on both sides "Do not draw me without reason or store me without honour" and on the reverse side it says "Never a dent shall I suffer as Toledo was my Cradle" It has been gilded, blued and highly polished all over as seen in the images.

I would love to hear any input about any of these knives.

regards

Gav

katana · 2nd November 2007, 04:07 PM

Hi Fernando,
I hope you don't mind me adding this, but this recently finished on eBay. I did bid ....but was not confident enough to bid too much....and (possibly) missed out on a bargain ?
I am not certain that this would be regarded as a Navaja as it is similar to knives described as 'Roman folders'. Whichever it is ...it is large. Blade approx. 25cms Opened approx. 53 cms

Any ideas

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/antique-foldin...QQcmdZViewItem

Freebooter, I am no expert, but you have some really nice examples

fernando · 2nd November 2007, 06:55 PM

Hi David

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

....and (possibly) missed out on a bargain ?

I am not so good ( or don't know enough ) at evaluating things at distance.
Chris could tell you a lot more about this piece.
But i don't think you missed something valuable. You might have missed the bargain, money wise, but i don't think you missed a good collectible item.
To my ignorant eyes, the blade looks funny. The lock, besides not being working, looks itself locked

. It looks as some extra device was added to it. But this must be because i never saw such pattern.
Again, Chris could help much further.
All the best
Fernando

Chris Evans · 3rd November 2007, 04:17 AM

Hi Gav,

You have a very nice collection. That large navaja is a beauty and most valuable.

I fear that Fernando, overstates my knowledge of navajas, but all the same will try to make a couple of comments:

That large antique navaja is in all probability a "Sevillana", that is from Seville, though one can never be certain without the cutler's brand or name. Forton dates similar pieces as late 19th century. Its high level of decoration and oversize blade tags it as a cutler's show piece - Then the Spanish upper classes still looked down on the navaja with utter contempt and the workers could not afford such an elaborate piece. The brass liners on each side of the blade, near the pivot, as well as the file work on the spine was a decorative feature found mostly on showpieces. All in all, a most collectable museum grade piece.

Now for the ones in the case:

The top one, with the aluminium handle has me wondering, but is in all probability post WWII, 60's perhaps. The ring pull on the spine spring suggests French. A further clue could be obtained from the lock: If it is a teat lock, then more likely than not French or Italian. If it has a rectangular "window" on the spine spring and it engages with blade ratchets or a single notch then probably Spanish. In the absence of a maker's brand positive identification of these clasp knives is very difficult as they were being made all over Europe.

The second from the top, by Alvaro Garcia, is typical of what was being turned out in Spain in the first half of the 20th century. According to a Spanish industry source, this cutler started working in 1878 and continued into the early 1930's after which his son Ricardo Garcia took over. The family is still active in Albacete. The difficulty in dating your navaja is whether it was made by Garcia senior or junior. For a start, the external spine spring definitely dates it as post 1900. At a guess, judging by the broad blade shape, I am inclined to think that it was made more towards the middle of the 20th century than earlier. As a broad generalization, as the 20th century progressed, Spanish made blades became wider. This blade shape is nowadays fancifully known as "bandolero" (that of bandits) despite that originally they were utilitarian in intent and that in earlier eras were referred to as "lengua de vaca" (cow's tongue). A strong clue could be obtained from the grind of the blade; If made by a grinding stone (rough), then it pertains to early 20th century but if by mechanized means (very smooth&polished), then it is a later product, since electric motors were not adopted until well into the 20th century. As an aside, I also have one of his navajas, but it has a much narrower blade.

The fourth from the top: Forton does list a CA (with an additional symbol over it) brand; At least one specimen is known of with the additional word "JEREZ" above the brand; This may be a clue to its origins - it is Spanish and pertains to the 19th century. Being without a lock, is what in Spain is known as a "navaja con cierro de fieles", ie a rivet lock, a real misnomer. These days we would call this type a friction folder. According to Forton this kind was the only one allowed by law in old Spain, notwithstanding the presence of locks on many others. - The very presence of such friction folders and the huge numbers of French imports without positive mechanical locks attests to the fact that the laws were in fact enforced, notwithstanding periodic laxness in this regard - This typology was probably normative in the olden days and is being used widely to this day. The famous navajas of Taramundi are a good example - Very utilitarian and functional, but rarely of high quality.

The fifth down is a 20th century piece. I have a couple that were made, I am told, by a defunct factory of Albacete in the 60s and were intended for export. They are of very poor quality, with an aluminium frame and stainless steel spring & blade. There is a fellow who still sells them on a Spanish forum, some with blades up to 10 inches. Actually, I bought three, but the moment I slightly flexed the blade of one it snapped!

The bottom one: I am afraid that your friend was right. I also have a similar one. These were made as cheap tourist souvenirs. After WWII The brand "Toledo" was stamped on knives made all over Spain, in an attempt to cash in on the reputation of their famous swords of yesteryear.

An end note: One of the problems we have in appraising pre 1900 Spanish made navajas is that the ones that saw day to day use had a short life and were very rough works, not very collectable and as such few survive. What remains are for most part showpieces and in a sense tend to misrepresent the genre.

If you haven't already done so, you may consider obtaining copies of Forton's "La Navaja Española Antigua" (Spanish only) and "Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas De Coleccion/Antique Clasp Knives, The Finest Collection Items" (Spanish&English). Forton is the leading authority on navajas and both books are standard reference works for antiques. For post 1900 navajas there isn't very much written, though probably the best work is by Jose Sanchez Ferrer's "Introduction Al Estudio De La Cuchilleria Artistica De Albacete" (Spanish only).

Cheers
Chris
PS Sent you a PM

Gavin Nugent · 3rd November 2007, 11:47 AM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/antique-foldin...QQcmdZViewItem

Freebooter, I am no expert, but you have some really nice examples

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Katana, a lot of hours has gone into sourcing these at the right price and presenting them for their future custodians. I am glad to hear you didn't go ahead with the knife in the link, not what I would call a sound investment. Keep looking, as I say, leave no stone unturned, there is treasure everywhere.

2nd November 2007, 01:38 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Chris Thanks Chris, and sorry to everyone for a repedative blog, seems I added it three times....newbie to this. I have uploaded a few photos of the large navaja and will add more of my navajas when time permits. I have also added an image of a framed collection I put together and various images I have on file of my Toledo navaja in the frame. In the framed collection, all navaja are approx 16 inches long. The top navaja is very unusual and I have no idea as to date or region, though I am thinking continental, first quater on the 20th century, it is a very well crafted knife, ring pull to top, razor sharp high carbon blade, aluminium handle with hard wood inserts and brass bolsters The second in made by Alvero Garcia of Albecete, another razor sharp blade with floral decoratons to both sides and a Spanish inscription I have not yet even thought to deciper, though I will shortly and keep those who are interested updated. It is a very wide blade and has a large number of rachet teeth too, I wouldn't consider this blade loose at all but it does flick nicely in the hand. The third is not Navaja but a mexican knife of the old wild west, marked C Camaren, just framed up for interest sake. The Fourth has not locking mechanism at all, personally I think this may have been an apprentice peice???? crafted without the locking part of the blade in error, hence no locking assembly on the top of it. It has an extremely thick spine, heavy pointy and razor sharp blade (nearly took my whole finger off, hence it is framed now!!) , marked C.A and a strange little symbol above this. It sports the most beautiful high polish horn handle. The fifth is a mid-late 20th century navaja with imitation mother of pearl grips. With regards to the 6th one, a Toledo navaja, I beleive it to be late 1800s very early 1900s, though I one chap here in Australia said it to be a very modern tourist item...anyone have any take on these opinions. It has outstanding deep etched or chisled releif all over the blade and handle, it of an all metal construction and has Spanish inscriptions on both sides "Do not draw me without reason or store me without honour" and on the reverse side it says "Never a dent shall I suffer as Toledo was my Cradle" It has been gilded, blued and highly polished all over as seen in the images. I would love to hear any input about any of these knives. regards Gav Attached Images

3rd November 2007, 04:17 AM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Gav, You have a very nice collection. That large navaja is a beauty and most valuable. I fear that Fernando, overstates my knowledge of navajas, but all the same will try to make a couple of comments: That large antique navaja is in all probability a "Sevillana", that is from Seville, though one can never be certain without the cutler's brand or name. Forton dates similar pieces as late 19th century. Its high level of decoration and oversize blade tags it as a cutler's show piece - Then the Spanish upper classes still looked down on the navaja with utter contempt and the workers could not afford such an elaborate piece. The brass liners on each side of the blade, near the pivot, as well as the file work on the spine was a decorative feature found mostly on showpieces. All in all, a most collectable museum grade piece. Now for the ones in the case: The top one, with the aluminium handle has me wondering, but is in all probability post WWII, 60's perhaps. The ring pull on the spine spring suggests French. A further clue could be obtained from the lock: If it is a teat lock, then more likely than not French or Italian. If it has a rectangular "window" on the spine spring and it engages with blade ratchets or a single notch then probably Spanish. In the absence of a maker's brand positive identification of these clasp knives is very difficult as they were being made all over Europe. The second from the top, by Alvaro Garcia, is typical of what was being turned out in Spain in the first half of the 20th century. According to a Spanish industry source, this cutler started working in 1878 and continued into the early 1930's after which his son Ricardo Garcia took over. The family is still active in Albacete. The difficulty in dating your navaja is whether it was made by Garcia senior or junior. For a start, the external spine spring definitely dates it as post 1900. At a guess, judging by the broad blade shape, I am inclined to think that it was made more towards the middle of the 20th century than earlier. As a broad generalization, as the 20th century progressed, Spanish made blades became wider. This blade shape is nowadays fancifully known as "bandolero" (that of bandits) despite that originally they were utilitarian in intent and that in earlier eras were referred to as "lengua de vaca" (cow's tongue). A strong clue could be obtained from the grind of the blade; If made by a grinding stone (rough), then it pertains to early 20th century but if by mechanized means (very smooth&polished), then it is a later product, since electric motors were not adopted until well into the 20th century. As an aside, I also have one of his navajas, but it has a much narrower blade. The fourth from the top: Forton does list a CA (with an additional symbol over it) brand; At least one specimen is known of with the additional word "JEREZ" above the brand; This may be a clue to its origins - it is Spanish and pertains to the 19th century. Being without a lock, is what in Spain is known as a "navaja con cierro de fieles", ie a rivet lock, a real misnomer. These days we would call this type a friction folder. According to Forton this kind was the only one allowed by law in old Spain, notwithstanding the presence of locks on many others. - The very presence of such friction folders and the huge numbers of French imports without positive mechanical locks attests to the fact that the laws were in fact enforced, notwithstanding periodic laxness in this regard - This typology was probably normative in the olden days and is being used widely to this day. The famous navajas of Taramundi are a good example - Very utilitarian and functional, but rarely of high quality. The fifth down is a 20th century piece. I have a couple that were made, I am told, by a defunct factory of Albacete in the 60s and were intended for export. They are of very poor quality, with an aluminium frame and stainless steel spring & blade. There is a fellow who still sells them on a Spanish forum, some with blades up to 10 inches. Actually, I bought three, but the moment I slightly flexed the blade of one it snapped! The bottom one: I am afraid that your friend was right. I also have a similar one. These were made as cheap tourist souvenirs. After WWII The brand "Toledo" was stamped on knives made all over Spain, in an attempt to cash in on the reputation of their famous swords of yesteryear. An end note: One of the problems we have in appraising pre 1900 Spanish made navajas is that the ones that saw day to day use had a short life and were very rough works, not very collectable and as such few survive. What remains are for most part showpieces and in a sense tend to misrepresent the genre. If you haven't already done so, you may consider obtaining copies of Forton's "La Navaja Española Antigua" (Spanish only) and "Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas De Coleccion/Antique Clasp Knives, The Finest Collection Items" (Spanish&English). Forton is the leading authority on navajas and both books are standard reference works for antiques. For post 1900 navajas there isn't very much written, though probably the best work is by Jose Sanchez Ferrer's "Introduction Al Estudio De La Cuchilleria Artistica De Albacete" (Spanish only). Cheers Chris PS Sent you a PM Last edited by Chris Evans; 3rd November 2007 at 05:19 AM.

2nd November 2007, 04:07 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fernando, I hope you don't mind me adding this, but this recently finished on eBay. I did bid ....but was not confident enough to bid too much....and (possibly) missed out on a bargain ? I am not certain that this would be regarded as a Navaja as it is similar to knives described as 'Roman folders'. Whichever it is ...it is large. Blade approx. 25cms Opened approx. 53 cms Any ideas http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/antique-foldin...QQcmdZViewItem Freebooter, I am no expert, but you have some really nice examples

3rd November 2007, 11:47 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/antique-foldin...QQcmdZViewItem Freebooter, I am no expert, but you have some really nice examples [/QUOTE] Thanks Katana, a lot of hours has gone into sourcing these at the right price and presenting them for their future custodians. I am glad to hear you didn't go ahead with the knife in the link, not what I would call a sound investment. Keep looking, as I say, leave no stone unturned, there is treasure everywhere.