Tulwar makers/armory mark help?

timv · 1st November 2007, 08:35 PM

Thanks so much to both Jim and Olikara for your help in this! It brings me closer to an understanding of this (as you put it Jim) warrior weapon.

I know that there have been posts here in the past giving suggestions for traditional goop for reattaching the hilts of these swords but does anyone have thoughts on a modern material that I can use to do this without making it a permanent "repair"? I wouldn't like to use an epoxy or something that would be an irreversable addition. Any further help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for all the help so far!

rand · 1st November 2007, 09:19 PM

Used to have a reference for the material used to hold tulwar hilts, cannot find it at moment.

But the material used was most likely mastic, a resin material grown on one of the Greek islands, also used for making chewing gum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastic

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd November 2007, 05:21 PM

Hi timv, Olikara must have been standing on his head reading the number

, as it should be read from the back of the blade and not from the edge. The number is, however, so clear that there can be no doubt ‘141’ it is, but which dialect, could it be Kutch? What do you think Olikara? The ‘1’ is from my ‘translation’ sheet from Kutch, which not necessarily means much.

If the number was hidden under the langet it can’t have been an armoury mark, like Jim says, as an armoury mark was supposed to have been seen easily, so it must have been something else – a sword smith’s mark perhaps, but is a number not a strange mark for a sword smith? So let me come with a wild guess, the numbers could either have meant something else, or the smith could have been working at a very big place with many smiths, and his number was 141.

Do you know where it was found?

I think Rand's suggestion is a good one, I would never use epoxy.

Here it how it should look.

olikara · 2nd November 2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The number is, however, so clear that there can be no doubt ‘141’ it is, but which dialect, could it be Kutch? What do you think Olikara? The ‘1’ is from my ‘translation’ sheet from Kutch, which not necessarily means much.

Jens,
I can only say that the dialect is from a (North) Indian Hindu state. It could be Rajput, Kutchi, Marwari or any of the myriad of dialects in the Indian Northern and Central provinces. Perhaps, if we know where the sword was found, we can pin the location.

And as you suggested, the '1' is not written in the way that the Hindu '1' should be written. But I assume that it is only a case of artistic license on the part of the die (punch) maker.

Olikara

rand · 2nd November 2007, 07:03 PM

Does the dot after the "141" have any signifigance?

rand

olikara · 3rd November 2007, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Does the dot after the "141" have any signifigance?

rand

Rand,

It is not a dot but if you look closely 2 dots. In Sanskrit, 2 dots after a vowel/consonant denote the 'ah' sound. So, if I wanted to write 'Mah', I would write it as M:

It does not apply to numerals though. So my guess here is that it may have been used to denote a specific armoury or work batch.

Olikara

Pukka Bundook · 8th November 2007, 02:03 PM

Olikara,

It seems resin from the peepol (?) tree was used for securing hilts, but others know much more than me on this subject.
I did once re-attach a hilt using the original resin, broken up and heated, but it was a fight!

If you Did use epoxy,(with colouring) it isn't an irreversible step. If the item is gently heated, the epoxy turns soft and the hilt could be removed.

All the best,
Richard.

1st November 2007, 08:35 PM	#1
timv Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	Many Thanks! Thanks so much to both Jim and Olikara for your help in this! It brings me closer to an understanding of this (as you put it Jim) warrior weapon. I know that there have been posts here in the past giving suggestions for traditional goop for reattaching the hilts of these swords but does anyone have thoughts on a modern material that I can use to do this without making it a permanent "repair"? I wouldn't like to use an epoxy or something that would be an irreversable addition. Any further help is greatly appreciated. Thanks again for all the help so far!

1st November 2007, 09:19 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Mastic Used to have a reference for the material used to hold tulwar hilts, cannot find it at moment. But the material used was most likely mastic, a resin material grown on one of the Greek islands, also used for making chewing gum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastic rand

2nd November 2007, 05:21 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi timv, Olikara must have been standing on his head reading the number, as it should be read from the back of the blade and not from the edge. The number is, however, so clear that there can be no doubt ‘141’ it is, but which dialect, could it be Kutch? What do you think Olikara? The ‘1’ is from my ‘translation’ sheet from Kutch, which not necessarily means much. If the number was hidden under the langet it can’t have been an armoury mark, like Jim says, as an armoury mark was supposed to have been seen easily, so it must have been something else – a sword smith’s mark perhaps, but is a number not a strange mark for a sword smith? So let me come with a wild guess, the numbers could either have meant something else, or the smith could have been working at a very big place with many smiths, and his number was 141. Do you know where it was found? I think Rand's suggestion is a good one, I would never use epoxy. Here it how it should look. Attached Images

2nd November 2007, 07:03 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Dot Does the dot after the "141" have any signifigance? rand

8th November 2007, 02:03 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Resin Olikara, It seems resin from the peepol (?) tree was used for securing hilts, but others know much more than me on this subject. I did once re-attach a hilt using the original resin, broken up and heated, but it was a fight! If you Did use epoxy,(with colouring) it isn't an irreversible step. If the item is gently heated, the epoxy turns soft and the hilt could be removed. All the best, Richard.