Balinese Keris Help

Jacob · 5th March 2005, 05:04 PM

Hi, Could anyone help me determine age /authenticity of this keris?
Thanks.

nechesh · 5th March 2005, 06:34 PM

Hi Jacob, welcome to the forum. Nice Bali keris. Authentic? Certainly. Looks to me to be mid -late 19thC, but it could be a bit older. Nice silver diety hilt. Most of the stones look real on there, including low-grade ruby and sapphire, and some other semi-precious stones. The mendak (hilt ring) looks like a newer addition and the "stones" there may be glass. The metal here is probably brass.The metal sheath cover appears to also be silver and is nicely repoussed. Nice blade as well. It could use a etch and restaining to raise the pamor pattern. All in all pretty nice. I certainly wouldn't mind owning it.

Jacob · 5th March 2005, 07:57 PM

Thanks, Nechesh. This is the nicest one I have. Here is another one. I'm a little suspicious about this one, as the blade looks too new and perfect.

nechesh · 6th March 2005, 12:52 AM

Jacob, i would say that this second one is newer than the first, but it is not a new blade. Could be early 20thC up until the 1940s, but i doubt any newer than that. This quality of keris doesn't really appear in post WWII Bali. Could you show a close-up of the gandik area (where the carved elephant head is)? The hilt on this one is also nice, but not like the first. I suspect this one may be silver plated brass as opposed to solid silver.

Jacob · 6th March 2005, 01:47 AM

The hilt did not come with the keis. It had a relly crude wood one.

Battara · 6th March 2005, 12:18 PM

I would say with David that silver plated brass is involved. Both keris hilts look silver plated brass or white brass to me and newer. Nice work. The sheath of the first might very well be silver.

Jacob · 6th March 2005, 04:13 PM

Both hilts do have greenish (like corroded copper) residue in recesses, more visible on the second. Does it mean they are both modern repros?

There is a balinese keris offered on e-bay right now:

(deleted , active auction)

The hilt looks like a combination Cecanginan and Gerantiman. Is it modern also?

Alam Shah · 6th March 2005, 04:59 PM

Whoa! Jacob...forum rules, no posting of active auction item...

.

Jacob · 6th March 2005, 05:34 PM

Sorry, I'm new here. Is it legal to post pictures from the active item without the link?

Battara · 6th March 2005, 06:40 PM

They are still making keris there. Repros? - yes and real modern ones too. I think yours are not repros but modern ones. Repros are for tourists and are obvious in their horrible quality. Yours are not for the tourists and seem to be better crafted.

Regarding posting pics, it is better to post pics of "dead" auctions.

nechesh · 6th March 2005, 08:04 PM

As Jose points out, the distinction between modern and repro can sometimes be a tricky one. One must consider that while certainly at a wanning point, the keris is still a living art form. I tend to agree that your first hilt is perhaps modern, but not what i would call a repro. The second is of a lesser quality.
These hilt are both in a very traditional form, but there are neither Cecanginan nor Gerantiman nor a combination of the two. I believe these are Bayu hilts, a representation of the god of wind.

nechesh · 6th March 2005, 08:19 PM

Jacob, check your private message box. You've got mail.

Jacob · 7th March 2005, 12:09 AM

I wonder how old is my avatar.

nechesh · 7th March 2005, 12:50 AM

I don't think i would feel qualified to put an exact date on it. It certain shows age and has a nice patina, especially on the belly.

It is a very nice carving and not a figure i can recall seeing exactly as such before. I love the figure's right hand position. Is the mendak that is with it gold w/rubies or is it just glass? It's always hard to tell such things w/ internet pictures. If they are rubies i would say they are fairly high end ones. Nice hilt regardless.

Andrew · 7th March 2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob

Sorry, I'm new here. Is it legal to post pictures from the active item without the link?

Hi Jacob. As Battara points out, it is better to wait for an auction to end before linking it or referencing it. However, photos can be posted if no auction reference is evident.

You might want to read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

Welcome to the forum.

Rick · 7th March 2005, 04:01 PM

Might Jacob's ukiran be a Balinese Ho Tai form ?

Jacob · 9th March 2005, 04:33 PM

Now that the auction is over and it's legal to post: has anyone
seen a hilt like this before (combination Cecanginan and Gerantiman).

Mans · 15th March 2005, 02:11 AM

The nice hilt looks like a Tapukan style. Original by Balinese carving. Combinated with brass. It completely hilt.
I was bidding too for this keris at eBay, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MESO:IT

.... but I lost it and have no lucky

Beautiful Balinese keris. Congratulations, Jacob.

Regards,
Mans.

Rick · 15th March 2005, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

The nice hilt looks like a Tapukan style. Original by Balinese carving. Combinated with brass. It completely hilt.
I was bidding too for this keris at eBay, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MESO:IT

.... but I lost it and have no lucky

Beautiful Balinese keris. Congratulations, Jacob.

Regards,
Mans.

You know I looked at this piece and it appeared to me to be new work .

Mans · 15th March 2005, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

You know I looked at this piece and it appeared to me to be new work .

Would you please give me some reason about new work, Rick ?
In my eyes, it is beautiful balinese keris with nice pamor. Not to old, I think made about CA19th and it has good take care by the owner before. Looks so different between new iron with old piece.

Regards,
Mans.

Rick · 15th March 2005, 04:11 AM

Sometimes you just get a feeling .

I'm not saying that it isn't exquisite work or not worth the money paid .

It just looks new , the blade appears perfectly smooth yet it isn't polished .

The wood work on the ukiran looks softly carved rather than sharp carving that is worn with age and it seems ill fitted to the metal cap .

The pendokok may be older as it seems to show some staining .

The metalwork on the ukiran seems just not quite as good as it should be considering the overall impression this piece should make .

There seems to be no patina present on most of the piece .

These are just the observations of a Westerner and should be taken as such , an opinion .

Mans · 15th March 2005, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Sometimes you just get a feeling .

I'm not saying that it isn't exquisite work or not worth the money paid .

It just looks new , the blade appears perfectly smooth yet it isn't polished .

The metalwork on the ukiran seems just not quite as good as it should be considering the overall impression this piece should make .

These are just the observations of a Westerner and should be taken as such , an opinion .

Hi, Rick,
Sometimes we just got the feeling, but actually we should know about the blade, ironwork and pamor.
Often we interested about the keris because we look that a keris used an nice old scabbard and accesories like pendok and hilt. But actually we bought a new keris or common keris which have no special characteristic.
Or, often we try to justifying that the keris is new just because it have a completly or intact ricikan like greneng, ron dha or kembang kacang, but actually this keris is old and has good take care before.

This keris which last posted look so nice for me. The blade look made by good ironwork. I think it made about middle to end of CA19th, not older, but it is not a new made. The scabbard look handsome

and used an old pendok from silver. About the hilt and silver fitting, I don't have any idea how old it is

But I think it is an original Balinese hilt.

Westerner or easterner whose interest about keris look the same for me.
They have many reason and knowledge how to give opinion about it. And I try to learn more from all of them

Best Regards,
Mans.

Sang Keris · 15th March 2005, 09:40 AM

Up to you !

Sang Keris · 15th March 2005, 09:42 AM

mans ,.. don't argue..
...thts useless....

let people say whatever they wanna say,,,..

im out....

Andrew · 15th March 2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

Westerner or easterner whose interest about keris look the same for me.
They have many reason and knowledge how to give opinion about it. And I try to learn more from all of them

Best Regards,
Mans.

I agree Mans. I'm so uninformed when it comes to keris, that I eagerly read everyone's opinions.

Andrew · 15th March 2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sang Keris

mans ,.. don't argue..
...thts useless....

let people say whatever they wanna say,,,..

im out....

Sang, I don't think Rick and Mans were arguing. It seemed like a respectful disagreement and discussion. Personally, I was hoping you'd come along and talk about your keris too.

It was quite a beautiful piece.

Rick · 15th March 2005, 05:05 PM

Sang , I'm sorry if you are offended by my observations , I will stand by my opinion though .

If this forum is for polite agreement only and not sharing differing observations and opinions then it is worthless and should be closed .

Mans · 16th March 2005, 02:12 AM

Hi guys,

I think Jacob still waiting for some good opinion, did you Jacob ?

I think Jacob have many nice Balinese keris, specifically keris which posted first.

Regards,
Mans.

Rick · 16th March 2005, 02:49 AM

Mans ,
How do you know that Jacob purchased this piece ?

Mans · 16th March 2005, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Mans ,
How do you know that Jacob purchased this piece ?

Dear Rick,
I think it is just small detective play

I saw in eBay that the winning bidder is : jcbxly from USA

and "Jacob" is the one who posted in this thread and asking about this keris..... so

I just supposed that "JCB" must be "Jacob"

I think that is not too hard to figure it out

To Jacob:
Sorry if I was saying about that. I hope you don't feel scruples about my suspicion

Till now, I don't have Balinese keris

, so..., if someone posted the Balinese keris, I feel comfortable to hear the discussion about it.

Regards,
Mans

5th March 2005, 05:04 PM	#1
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	Balinese Keris Help Hi, Could anyone help me determine age /authenticity of this keris? Thanks. Attached Images

5th March 2005, 07:57 PM	#3
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	Thanks, Nechesh. This is the nicest one I have. Here is another one. I'm a little suspicious about this one, as the blade looks too new and perfect. Attached Images

6th March 2005, 01:47 AM	#5
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	The hilt did not come with the keis. It had a relly crude wood one. Attached Images

6th March 2005, 04:13 PM	#7
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	Both hilts do have greenish (like corroded copper) residue in recesses, more visible on the second. Does it mean they are both modern repros? There is a balinese keris offered on e-bay right now: (deleted , active auction) The hilt looks like a combination Cecanginan and Gerantiman. Is it modern also? Last edited by Rick; 6th March 2005 at 05:17 PM.

7th March 2005, 12:09 AM	#13
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	I wonder how old is my avatar. Attached Images

5th March 2005, 06:34 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Jacob, welcome to the forum. Nice Bali keris. Authentic? Certainly. Looks to me to be mid -late 19thC, but it could be a bit older. Nice silver diety hilt. Most of the stones look real on there, including low-grade ruby and sapphire, and some other semi-precious stones. The mendak (hilt ring) looks like a newer addition and the "stones" there may be glass. The metal here is probably brass.The metal sheath cover appears to also be silver and is nicely repoussed. Nice blade as well. It could use a etch and restaining to raise the pamor pattern. All in all pretty nice. I certainly wouldn't mind owning it.

6th March 2005, 12:52 AM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Jacob, i would say that this second one is newer than the first, but it is not a new blade. Could be early 20thC up until the 1940s, but i doubt any newer than that. This quality of keris doesn't really appear in post WWII Bali. Could you show a close-up of the gandik area (where the carved elephant head is)? The hilt on this one is also nice, but not like the first. I suspect this one may be silver plated brass as opposed to solid silver.

6th March 2005, 12:18 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I would say with David that silver plated brass is involved. Both keris hilts look silver plated brass or white brass to me and newer. Nice work. The sheath of the first might very well be silver.

6th March 2005, 04:59 PM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Whoa! Jacob...forum rules, no posting of active auction item... .

6th March 2005, 05:34 PM	#9
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	Sorry, I'm new here. Is it legal to post pictures from the active item without the link?

6th March 2005, 06:40 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	They are still making keris there. Repros? - yes and real modern ones too. I think yours are not repros but modern ones. Repros are for tourists and are obvious in their horrible quality. Yours are not for the tourists and seem to be better crafted. Regarding posting pics, it is better to post pics of "dead" auctions.

6th March 2005, 08:04 PM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	As Jose points out, the distinction between modern and repro can sometimes be a tricky one. One must consider that while certainly at a wanning point, the keris is still a living art form. I tend to agree that your first hilt is perhaps modern, but not what i would call a repro. The second is of a lesser quality. These hilt are both in a very traditional form, but there are neither Cecanginan nor Gerantiman nor a combination of the two. I believe these are Bayu hilts, a representation of the god of wind.

6th March 2005, 08:19 PM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Jacob, check your private message box. You've got mail.

7th March 2005, 12:50 AM	#14
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I don't think i would feel qualified to put an exact date on it. It certain shows age and has a nice patina, especially on the belly. It is a very nice carving and not a figure i can recall seeing exactly as such before. I love the figure's right hand position. Is the mendak that is with it gold w/rubies or is it just glass? It's always hard to tell such things w/ internet pictures. If they are rubies i would say they are fairly high end ones. Nice hilt regardless. Last edited by nechesh; 7th March 2005 at 02:06 AM.

7th March 2005, 04:01 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Maybe It's A Stretch Might Jacob's ukiran be a Balinese Ho Tai form ? Attached Images

9th March 2005, 04:33 PM	#17
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	Now that the auction is over and it's legal to post: has anyone seen a hilt like this before (combination Cecanginan and Gerantiman). Attached Images

15th March 2005, 02:11 AM	#18
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	The nice hilt looks like a Tapukan style. Original by Balinese carving. Combinated with brass. It completely hilt. I was bidding too for this keris at eBay, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MESO:IT .... but I lost it and have no lucky Beautiful Balinese keris. Congratulations, Jacob. Regards, Mans.

15th March 2005, 04:11 AM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Sometimes you just get a feeling . I'm not saying that it isn't exquisite work or not worth the money paid . It just looks new , the blade appears perfectly smooth yet it isn't polished . The wood work on the ukiran looks softly carved rather than sharp carving that is worn with age and it seems ill fitted to the metal cap . The pendokok may be older as it seems to show some staining . The metalwork on the ukiran seems just not quite as good as it should be considering the overall impression this piece should make . There seems to be no patina present on most of the piece . These are just the observations of a Westerner and should be taken as such , an opinion . Last edited by Rick; 15th March 2005 at 04:22 AM.

15th March 2005, 09:40 AM	#23
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	Up to you ! Last edited by Sang Keris; 15th March 2005 at 01:00 PM.

15th March 2005, 09:42 AM	#24
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	mans ,.. don't argue.. ...thts useless.... let people say whatever they wanna say,,,.. im out.... Last edited by Sang Keris; 15th March 2005 at 12:59 PM.

15th March 2005, 05:05 PM	#27
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Sang , I'm sorry if you are offended by my observations , I will stand by my opinion though . If this forum is for polite agreement only and not sharing differing observations and opinions then it is worthless and should be closed .

16th March 2005, 02:12 AM	#28
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Hi guys, I think Jacob still waiting for some good opinion, did you Jacob ? I think Jacob have many nice Balinese keris, specifically keris which posted first. Regards, Mans.

16th March 2005, 02:49 AM	#29
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Mans , How do you know that Jacob purchased this piece ?