Bugis keris

[nechesh]

Sorry Kai Wee, but i respectfully disagree. I don't mean to suggest that dress is unimportant. That is certainly not the case. But the iron is always the MOST important part of the keris. Dress will be changed by time and circumstance, but the iron remains. If the owner a a keris pusaka falls on hard times he might be found to sell off the valuable parts of his dress, but the keris itself would be the last thing he lets go of. I would personally always give due respect to the empu of such a keris by referring to at as being from it's place of origin first rgardless of which culture it is dressed in. To me this is the only logical way to properly classify these weapons in a way that makes sense.
Why did Hang Tauh find it necessary to go to Jawa in search of a keris? He must have thought much of the skills of the Javanese empus. Do we then disregard their work and skills. IMO, Taming Sari would be a Javanese keris in Peninsula dress. I would have to respectively disagree with your Malay friends though i understand their sense of nationalism.

[tom hyle]

Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

[BluErf]

I'm not playing down the importance of the blade, or saying that the blade is not (part of) the keris. And I'm also not disrespecting the skills of the smith/empu who made the blade. Don't go to the other extreme.

Yes, the "blade is the sword", but what kind of sword?

Take me for example. I'm ethnically Chinese. Both my grandfathers came from China. But I'm not going to dress like a China Chinese and tell people that I am a Chinese National. Genetically, I'm the exactly the same as the people from China, much like Taming Sari was forged by a Javanese empu. But I'll tell you my identity is a Singaporean of Chinese descent, here in Southeast Asia, part of the Malay world.

So what happens to a keris that makes its way from Java to Peninsula Malaysia? Yes, the blade was made by a Javanese smith. But now that it has made its way to the Malay world, and dressed as such, is it still a Javanese keris? Would any Americans of German descent say that they are Germans? I think they call themselves Americans.

Take another example. The firanggi swords used by Indians. Blade may be European, but I'm sure you won't call it a European sabre/sword in its present dress. What about Ethiopian shotels?

[DAHenkel]

We all spend a lot of time wondering and thinking about what part of what is what. Javanese blades, Malay sampir, Bugis hilts - and rightfully so. Its interesting, its fun and we learn a little bit about the origins and lifetime of an individual keris. Who defines whether the keris is Javanese because the blade is - or Malay because the dress is depends on who you talk to I suppose. I'd venture to say that the folks in Jerteh would probably tell you its a Terengganu keris with a Javanese blade and they'd be right in their humble opinion. You might even find one or two contrarians around to back you up in an argument. Who knows.

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

You're probably right there Dave, that would probably be a bit of a faux pas. However, how easy would it be for me to just change the dress of this keris before entering the Kraton and then change it back again on my return to the Peninsula. The blade remains what it is regardless of the dress. Recently i believe you or Kai Wee posted a photo of yourselves in Malay dress complete with your keris. You guys looked stunning. i might add. Add to this authentic dress the fact that you speak the language flawlessly and are totally emersed in the culture. Still, i have to wonder if when people see you there they think, "There goes a Malaysian man". At the end of the day you are still a human of the European gene pool dressed in Malay clothing. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but you are still who you are. You can't deny or erase your origin, nor do i think you should try. IMO it is the same with keris.

Kai Wee, i cannot see how i can put the dress of a keris on an equal footing with the blade. If that's what you mean by going to the other extreme, it's too late, am already there. If i had just the blade it would not be at all unusual to commission new dress for it. Living outside the culture as i do i would probably choose to dress it most appropriately to the origin of the blade. If i lived within the culture i would probably dress it according to my own local custom. But have you ever heard of someone commisioning a blade for dress that had lost it's blade? That seems rather an unlikely scenerio. The angsar, the power that resides in the keris, resides in the blade, not the sheath. Yes, it is true that a keris is incomplete with a sheath, but that doesn't make the sheath as important as the keris itself. The dress can always be added. The blade, with it's angsar, is the heart of it all.
Actually, though you will find many well assimilated Americans, many will refer to themselves as African-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc., especially around the holidays that relate to their ancestrial countries of origin (try coming to Cincinati during OktoberFest and see how many people here are German). Note that in these configurations the ancestrial country comes before Americans.

When holes like this appear in the sogokan it is generally worn through from years of acid washing. These slits are so even though, that i suspect someone may have helped this process along with some additional filing. These are often confused with the mystical holes which Alam Shah refers to, know as cemplong (i have sometimes seen this written combong). Cemplong are clearly placed there by the empu and the owner of the keris is supposed to be able to obtain what he spys through the hole(s) while chanting the appropriate mantras.

[tom hyle]

Thanks

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kai Wee, i cannot see how i can put the dress of a keris on an equal footing with the blade. If that's what you mean by going to the other extreme, it's too late, am already there. If i had just the blade it would not be at all unusual to commission new dress for it. Living outside the culture as i do i would probably choose to dress it most appropriately to the origin of the blade. If i lived within the culture i would probably dress it according to my own local custom. But have you ever heard of someone commisioning a blade for dress that had lost it's blade? That seems rather an unlikely scenerio. The angsar, the power that resides in the keris, resides in the blade, not the sheath. Yes, it is true that a keris is incomplete with a sheath, but that doesn't make the sheath as important as the keris itself. The dress can always be added. The blade, with it's angsar, is the heart of it all.
Actually, though you will find many well assimilated Americans, many will refer to themselves as African-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc., especially around the holidays that relate to their ancestrial countries of origin (try coming to Cincinati during OktoberFest and see how many people here are German). Note that in these configurations the ancestrial country comes before Americans.

You should read "The Spirit of Wood". There is 'semangat' in the wood too. And I might say the way you talk about sheaths and handles almost suggests that a well-made sheath and handle can be gotten easily. I hope you appreciate the pains and efforts that the miranggi/wood carver puts into acquiring the wood, curing it, selecting the best piece, and of course, actually carving it into a beautiful piece of artwork. First class keris sheaths and handles can melt you as easily as first class keris blades.

While no one would commission a blade to fit a sheath, I assure you that a beautiful sheath without a blade can always be fitted with a blade. I've seen that done many times.

Your point on Americans of various origins -- you just made my point. What was the common link amongst them all -- "American"! So a Javanese keris dressed in Terengganu parts, and a Bugis keris dressed in Terengganu parts, and a Terengganu keris dressed in Terengganu parts are... [you can complete the sentence].

Hi Tom -- while clothes don't make a man, I'm sure good clothes would certainly open many doors. And I'm not quite sure what you meant by the proper dress phenomenon is not an old/traditional or Southeast Asian. If its with respect to kerises, it certainly is not right to say so. Discounting the 'tourist trade', the keris dress is defined by tradition/'adat'. If there is no 'adat', we could not have possibly differentiated between Sulawesi kerises from Balinese kerises from Riau kerises from Minang kerises, etc.

[Montino Bourbon]

You gentlemen might be amused by this keris; Blade bought from Capt. Smash on ebay, handle of African Pink Ivory wood by my friend in Bali, and sheath of rosewood trimmed with pink ivory and ebony by... yours truly!
(And by the way... it's a perfect fit, and doesn't rattle in the sheath, except to warn me of approaching danger!)

[DAHenkel]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Your point on Americans of various origins -- you just made my point. What was the common link amongst them all -- "American"! So a Javanese keris dressed in Terengganu parts, and a Bugis keris dressed in Terengganu parts, and a Terengganu keris dressed in Terengganu parts are... [you can complete the sentence].

Terengganu Americans?

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Tom -- while clothes don't make a man, I'm sure good clothes would certainly open many doors. And I'm not quite sure what you meant by the proper dress phenomenon is not an old/traditional or Southeast Asian. If its with respect to kerises, it certainly is not right to say so. Discounting the 'tourist trade', the keris dress is defined by tradition/'adat'. If there is no 'adat', we could not have possibly differentiated between Sulawesi kerises from Balinese kerises from Riau kerises from Minang kerises, etc.

Perhaps you have misunderstood me, but I do not think you are correct. Allow me to explain. What would traditionally be done/appreciated by traditional kris appreciators (ie oceanic SE Asians) is not, at least to my understanding AT ALL to put say a Bali kris in Bali dress. Not at all not at all; rather to put whatever blade you get in the dress native to you, the owner (caretaker, etc....). So in the past if/when a Javanese acquired a Bugis k(e)ris and he considered it worthy to keep, he might conceivably leave it in whatever dress it came with, but he would certainly not get the idea, (say it were naked or poorly dressed or he couldn't stand/comprehend its dress) that the proper thing to do would be to dress it Bugis style; no, I cannot see that; he would dress it Javanese.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

We all spend a lot of time wondering and thinking about what part of what is what. Javanese blades, Malay sampir, Bugis hilts - and rightfully so. Its interesting, its fun and we learn a little bit about the origins and lifetime of an individual keris. Who defines whether the keris is Javanese because the blade is - or Malay because the dress is depends on who you talk to I suppose. I'd venture to say that the folks in Jerteh would probably tell you its a Terengganu keris with a Javanese blade and they'd be right in their humble opinion. You might even find one or two contrarians around to back you up in an argument. Who knows.

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

There does seem to be a growing fascination with "proper" dress; with seeing a Java k(e)ris in Java dress, etc, and this phenomenon does not seem to me to be old/traditional nor SE Asian.

Bluerf: those are interesting points that do seem to colour the issue. However, allow me to propose that they carry a greater weight with items, like the examples you give, where the blade has been incorporated into what is intended as at least a more-or-less permanent assembly; becoming in effect a part of a single object. This is prominantly not the case with k(e)ris.

Further, allow me to suggest that being raised in a culture foreign to your genes is more like being a java k(e)ris made from Balinese ore, while a person FROM China who moves to USA and learns N American English and wears N American clothes is more like a Bali blade in Java dress. Although Java and Bali are not that far apart, of course......


I might mention here, BTW, that I do consider there to be a significant difference it type between shotels (with native or foreign blades) and sabres mounted as shotels, as well as between sabre sayf and the straight usually foreign blades one occasionally sees so mounted. Firangi is interesting, as it seems, though locally influenced, to have been invented specifically for the foreign blades. But my understanding of its name is that, in India, it is being called an European sword.

[DAHenkel]

Guys, we're talking about keris here, not ethnicity or race or anything else. There are paralells sure but its still apples and oranges. Humans can be defined by others but they can also define themselves. A keris is an inanimate object. It cannot define itself any further than its features communicate to us meaning and significance.

I would put to you that people in general assess the keris, as with most other examples including these cited by BluErf, based on the sum total off its parts. A Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts is a Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts. Why limit ourselves to such a simplistic notion that, because the blade is Javanese, ergo the keris is Javanese? Certainly we can grasp the complexities of a Javanese keris, dressed in Terengganu parts?

I would further argue that people will only define things based on what they know about them. In that sense my argument about walking into the Kraton was a bit unfair. After all they could not reasonably be expected to recognize the blade as being Javanese when they could not see it. And once they were assayed of the facts they would certainly be most willing to accept that the keris was in fact a Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts. Of course they would have probably have gotten bored and gone for coffee half-way through the explanation but hey that's real world and we're speculatin' here.

Also, Tom I'm afraid I don't quite buy your arugement about permanent (or impermanent construction). Its fair to say that in almost every case, a Javanese keris that has been dressed in Malay dress has been permanently modified - precisely because the pesi of a Javanese blade would almost certainly have to be shortened to fit a Malay hilt. Sure, you could re-dress the blade back in Javanese dress but I would also suggest that most Javanese would be appalled upon removing the hilt and discovering that the blade had been permanently disfigured.

I leave you all will a fun image of the excesses of parts sharing...let it be a warning to us all

[Alam Shah]

Yikes...what an ugly combination. The sheath is the most inappropriate combination. The pendok, instead of complimenting the sheath, spoils it.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

AFAIK, the holes may be used for mystical purposes. In Van Duuren's The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, there is a mention on pg.11 about a keris with a little chink in its blade used as a charm.