Question On Age

Battara · 21st October 2007, 06:24 PM

Robert, in most cases there was not a metal chape at the bottom of the scabbard.

Fernando, this is a good question. In this case, the "x" is a talismanic mark in the Philippines.

Robert · 21st October 2007, 07:39 PM

Hi Jose,
The reason I am thinking that this might have had a metal chape at one time is at the end of the scabbard where the tooling ends there are three sets of punch marks that are very similar to ones on another scabbard I have. On this other scabbard the indentations made by the punch are what holds the chape in place.
As to the X being a talismanic mark. Do you know what the exact meaning of this symbol is? When Fernando ask this question I started looking to see if I could find anything about it but had no luck. I would be very interested in finding out as quite a few of the items I have are decorated in this manor.

Robert

kai · 21st October 2007, 09:46 PM

Quote:

In this case, the "x" is a talismanic mark in the Philippines.

The "X" as well as "|" are found all over the Southeast Asian archipelago and seems to be associated with protective meaning regardless of origin. However, I haven't been able to obtain info on details either.

Regards,
Kai

Mark · 22nd October 2007, 02:24 PM

It's also found on Burmese & Shan dha, usually repeated two or more times, and often with a small brass inset along with it.

asomotif · 22nd October 2007, 05:22 PM

Amazing to see how the X on the back of blades turns up everywhere.

I have them on a Ladieng or Klewang from sumatra and seen them on mandaus.

Battara · 22nd October 2007, 11:04 PM

Well, in Cato he mentions "x" marks as being talismanic, but does not go any deeper than this. Yes I have seen these on other SE Asian pieces as well and thought the same or similar.

Nice example Asomotif, thanks.

Oh and regarding the holes in the top of the scabbard, I did not notice those very well until you mentioned them. I could be for a chape, but look closer - they could be where a thinner piece of colored leather was threaded.

fernando · 22nd October 2007, 11:36 PM

Sorry to divert.
I know connections are implausible, but here goes the Canary Islands example. It seems the "X" is quite a popular sign.

Nonoy Tan · 23rd October 2007, 01:43 AM

Those talismanic symbols baffle me as well - particularly those with an "X" surrounded by three lines on each side, and other variations. I suspect that some of the variations could be coincidental, as the "X" seems to be a universally used symbol. On the other hand, I also suspect that some of these talismanic symbols appearing in weaponry may be a clue to a common ancestral belief shared by the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, and east continental Asia (where "migrations" into the Southeast Asian islands supposedly originated). It would be interesting to see the same talismanic symbols appearing in very, very old weapons as that can provide an indication of the age of such beliefs.

Here is an old Negrito arrow showing the symbols. The Negritos are known to be the earlier inhabitants of the Philippines (before the migration of the "Indonesians" and Malay into the country). Also here is a photo of a warrior (Moro? - I don't know) who appears to have some Negrito ancestry (due to the curly hair). Notice the "X" marks on his body. Coincidence? - Apparently, we need more information. Maybe somebody can provide a more accurate origin of the man in the photo which was supposedly taken in 1870 (?).

It is possible that the talismanic symbol on a blade can provide general information on its age range?

22nd October 2007, 05:22 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,236	X pattern on blades Amazing to see how the X on the back of blades turns up everywhere. I have them on a Ladieng or Klewang from sumatra and seen them on mandaus. Attached Images

22nd October 2007, 11:36 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry to divert. I know connections are implausible, but here goes the Canary Islands example. It seems the "X" is quite a popular sign. Attached Images

23rd October 2007, 01:43 AM	#8
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Talismanic Symbols Those talismanic symbols baffle me as well - particularly those with an "X" surrounded by three lines on each side, and other variations. I suspect that some of the variations could be coincidental, as the "X" seems to be a universally used symbol. On the other hand, I also suspect that some of these talismanic symbols appearing in weaponry may be a clue to a common ancestral belief shared by the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, and east continental Asia (where "migrations" into the Southeast Asian islands supposedly originated). It would be interesting to see the same talismanic symbols appearing in very, very old weapons as that can provide an indication of the age of such beliefs. Here is an old Negrito arrow showing the symbols. The Negritos are known to be the earlier inhabitants of the Philippines (before the migration of the "Indonesians" and Malay into the country). Also here is a photo of a warrior (Moro? - I don't know) who appears to have some Negrito ancestry (due to the curly hair). Notice the "X" marks on his body. Coincidence? - Apparently, we need more information. Maybe somebody can provide a more accurate origin of the man in the photo which was supposedly taken in 1870 (?). It is possible that the talismanic symbol on a blade can provide general information on its age range? Attached Images

21st October 2007, 06:24 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,328	Robert, in most cases there was not a metal chape at the bottom of the scabbard. Fernando, this is a good question. In this case, the "x" is a talismanic mark in the Philippines.

21st October 2007, 07:39 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Jose, The reason I am thinking that this might have had a metal chape at one time is at the end of the scabbard where the tooling ends there are three sets of punch marks that are very similar to ones on another scabbard I have. On this other scabbard the indentations made by the punch are what holds the chape in place. As to the X being a talismanic mark. Do you know what the exact meaning of this symbol is? When Fernando ask this question I started looking to see if I could find anything about it but had no luck. I would be very interested in finding out as quite a few of the items I have are decorated in this manor. Robert

22nd October 2007, 02:24 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It's also found on Burmese & Shan dha, usually repeated two or more times, and often with a small brass inset along with it.

22nd October 2007, 11:04 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,328	Well, in Cato he mentions "x" marks as being talismanic, but does not go any deeper than this. Yes I have seen these on other SE Asian pieces as well and thought the same or similar. Nice example Asomotif, thanks. Oh and regarding the holes in the top of the scabbard, I did not notice those very well until you mentioned them. I could be for a chape, but look closer - they could be where a thinner piece of colored leather was threaded.