A Bugis keris for comments

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

This also confuse me. It is stated as a bugis keris. Does Bugis kerisses have this kind of hilt?

Rasdan - The sampir looks Buginese, the hilt looks more Straits type sea sword handle. (Ref. Frey's The Kris -Kris Archives, pg.58).

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 08:25 AM

There are some general 'guidelines', but as people move around in the archipelago, ideas and aesthetics are exchanged and lines get blurred.

I remember asking Dave and Paul a few years back how do they tell the kerises apart and I would never get a straight answer because there were (are) none. After seeing more examples and always asking -- where did this keris supposedly come from. And mulling over the information, judging for ourselves whether the information is reasonable or not, we begin to form a basic construct of what makes a Sulawesi sampir Sulawesi, and what makes a Riau sampir Riau etc. Not a neat thing... and frustrating always. And nobody's totally sure, especially with people (me included) swapping handles and pendokos around. Sometimes, even sheaths get swapped.

There you have it -- the whole conundrum.

As to RSword's kerises, I think the first one is Straits, judging from the blade, which looks S. Sumatran, and judging from the pendok motifs -- the distinctive swirling vegetation motif. The pendoko looks S. Sumatran. Could it be Sumbawa -- Maybe.

On the second one, I think its Sulawesi. The sheath has dauns (or 'leaves', at the 2 top ends of the sheath) that do not curve inwards. Sulawesi sampir has this tendency to have dauns that curve outwards. Also, I'm not sure if I spy a 'bulge' at the throat of the sampir.

rahman · 14th March 2005, 08:25 AM

Since I am also confused, let me add to the general confusion:

Alam Shah - your hilt and mendak are Jogja. So is the pendok. The wranka I don't know

Pak Rasdan - methinks your hulu is Kaki Kuda typical of Sumatran pieces.

But I'm only a beginner...

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 08:30 AM

That hilt form on the gold keris shown by Rasdan -- I've seen it a similar type on Nias 'keris'. Nias 'keris' is not really a keris. The sheath has a elongated sampir, which I believe is supposed to represent oxen ears, while the blade can be a sewar or golok type of blade, mounted on a hilt like this.

But this gold keris is dressed new. Traditional aesthetics and rules may not apply. The "horse hoof" hilt is typically found on keris panjang, anak alang, and on Minang kerises -- those small luk blades.

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 09:53 AM

Links to reference site, hopefully can help to understand the Bugis history and culture, a little.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/utilities/bugis.htm

Sumatra Keris
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...matrakeris.htm

The Kris (by Edward Frey), Kris Archive section.
page 66 - Sumatra-Bugis kerises
page 67 - Sulawesi-Bugis kerises

rasdan · 14th March 2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

But this gold keris is dressed new.

How new do u presume Blu? I heard that the wire works like that would at least be 100 years old.

Raja Muda · 14th March 2005, 11:47 AM

Hi RSword,

I must say I'm still drooling over the first Bugis keris you posted. Just out of curiosity, is the batang covered in gold, gilded silver or brass. How old is the keris and who happens to be the lucky owner. Truly a blade to die for!

RSWORD · 15th March 2005, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raja Muda

Hi RSword,

I must say I'm still drooling over the first Bugis keris you posted. Just out of curiosity, is the batang covered in gold, gilded silver or brass. How old is the keris and who happens to be the lucky owner. Truly a blade to die for!

It is a lovely keris and I am the lucky owner of it. The scabbard sleeve is solid gold(been tested for authenticity) but I am uncertain of the age of it. It does have an oral provenance that places it circa 1810-20 but unfortunately I do not have more solid provenance to know for sure. The blade goes well with the dress and it is beautiful as well.

RSWORD · 15th March 2005, 02:18 AM

Here is a link to a prior thread that shows a few close up shots of the first Bugis keris I posted.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=272

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 12:30 PM

I reckon the gold work to be 20th century work, which if we really stretch it back, would be about 100years, but maybe the middle ground of 50years is more likely.

The reason why I think the gold work is new is because we don't see similarly elaborately gold-worked Malay/Bugis examples on older pieces in books. There are gold pendok and pendokos, but not with all these gold filigree, and so much of it. I always have the idea that pre-20th century kerises wear gold a lot more sparingly than post-20th century equivalents. Also, the older gold kerises use lower-purity gold (9-14k) whereas the examples we see in the pics here are unabashedly high carat shiny yellow gold.

rahman · 14th March 2005, 01:49 PM

Still with the tapak kuda hilt -- I would imagine that, given the same geographical and cultural milieu (S and E Sumatra), the tapak kuda would have been a logical accessory than another design on the other side of the mountains, as it were.

Pak Rasdan can solve this mystery -- can you show a shot of the top of the hilt? Or maybe you can tell us if it's a tapak kuda.

Whose golden keris is that anyway? Sultan of Selangor? Or, as my imagination runs wild, is that the elusive golden keris salvaged from the Flora del Mel?

DAHenkel · 14th March 2005, 01:58 PM

Alamak! Rahman, tapak kuda lah...mana ada kaki kuda punya hulu sih?

I'd say that piece has the most recent goldwork though. It lacks the finess of some ofthe earlier work. I'm going to have to disagree with Blu on the goldwork of Rsword's piece though. I'm thinking more mid-19th c. By 1900 most of the Sultan's were under Colonial domination, there was a precipitous decline in the quality of - especially - high end keris and the Raja Raja went off and became good little Westernized puppets, spending thier money on motorcars, waterford crystal and Gordon's gin.

There's a similar example in Jensen - attributed to an Acehnese prince but clearly Straits in origin - I can't remember if its dated and I don't have a copy of the book so maybe someone can look it up - if I'm not wrong it was mid-19th. RSword's other piece also strikes me as S. Sumatran Bugis in origin. The blade especially. The dress is about as generically "Bugis" as you could get. Someday I'm going to get off my butt and take a trip down through Siak, Indragiri and Palembang. Have a sniff around and see what turns up. But for the time being I'd say this style is safely S. Sumatran.

Actually telling these things apart isn't really all that hard most of the time - there are some wierd ones that turn up but for the most part its pretty straightforward. Hard and fast rules though, will usually get you in trouble. I'm not going to go through a lot of trouble to write out all of the defining characteristics either - that's a hell of a lot of work and I was kinda' saving it for a book

but really the best way is the tried and true rule, the more you handle, the more you know.

You should all keep in mind that in the mid-1700's there were over 40,000 "Bugis" living in Riau. By the 1860's their descendants had become "Melayu keturunan Bugis", that is "Malay's of Bugis descent." In other words for all intents and purposes - at least for 19th c and later pieces, which is most of them - all of these keris are "Malay" keris anyway.

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 11:25 PM

Dave, the goldwork I was referring to was on the piece posted by Rasdan, not Rsword. Rsword's keris gold pendok is older, I agree.

Bugis Keris · 4th April 2014, 06:13 PM

This Kriss From North Sumatera. and this kriss familiar own by Batakness culture one culture of in indonesia in familiar with kriss is batak.
in usually the owner of this kriss in batak culture call Datuk.

Thank YOU

kerisbiz · 7th June 2017, 02:42 PM

This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes
I got from veteran soldier WW2... estimate 18 century... from 4 generations...

David · 7th June 2017, 03:05 PM

Hi Kerisbiz. I had to delete your link to your keris. All examples must be uploaded directly to the forum if you want to present your keris. This is because linked images disappear over time and leave sometimes large holes in our archived discussions. Thanks!

kai · 9th June 2017, 05:52 PM

The mods seem to enforce the rules more strictly recently - it definitely is important for keeping the info intact in the future as can be easily seen when browsing old threads which tend to have lots of dead links to pics that are dearly missing nowadays.

I do hope you give it another try to upload the pics to this site. If you experience any problems, just ask!

From what I can gather from your posting, I'd suggest to open a new thread for your keris rather than adding it to an old one - most pieces benefit from a dedicated discussion!

Regards,
Kai

14th March 2005, 09:53 AM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Resources - reference Links to reference site, hopefully can help to understand the Bugis history and culture, a little. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/utilities/bugis.htm Sumatra Keris http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...matrakeris.htm The Kris (by Edward Frey), Kris Archive section. page 66 - Sumatra-Bugis kerises page 67 - Sulawesi-Bugis kerises Last edited by Alam Shah; 15th March 2005 at 03:12 AM. Reason: add ref.

14th March 2005, 11:47 AM	#7
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	RSword's keris Hi RSword, I must say I'm still drooling over the first Bugis keris you posted. Just out of curiosity, is the batang covered in gold, gilded silver or brass. How old is the keris and who happens to be the lucky owner. Truly a blade to die for!

7th June 2017, 02:42 PM	#15
kerisbiz Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 15	This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes I got from veteran soldier WW2... estimate 18 century... from 4 generations... Last edited by David; 7th June 2017 at 03:03 PM.

14th March 2005, 08:25 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	There are some general 'guidelines', but as people move around in the archipelago, ideas and aesthetics are exchanged and lines get blurred. I remember asking Dave and Paul a few years back how do they tell the kerises apart and I would never get a straight answer because there were (are) none. After seeing more examples and always asking -- where did this keris supposedly come from. And mulling over the information, judging for ourselves whether the information is reasonable or not, we begin to form a basic construct of what makes a Sulawesi sampir Sulawesi, and what makes a Riau sampir Riau etc. Not a neat thing... and frustrating always. And nobody's totally sure, especially with people (me included) swapping handles and pendokos around. Sometimes, even sheaths get swapped. There you have it -- the whole conundrum. As to RSword's kerises, I think the first one is Straits, judging from the blade, which looks S. Sumatran, and judging from the pendok motifs -- the distinctive swirling vegetation motif. The pendoko looks S. Sumatran. Could it be Sumbawa -- Maybe. On the second one, I think its Sulawesi. The sheath has dauns (or 'leaves', at the 2 top ends of the sheath) that do not curve inwards. Sulawesi sampir has this tendency to have dauns that curve outwards. Also, I'm not sure if I spy a 'bulge' at the throat of the sampir.

14th March 2005, 08:25 AM	#3
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Since I am also confused, let me add to the general confusion: Alam Shah - your hilt and mendak are Jogja. So is the pendok. The wranka I don't know Pak Rasdan - methinks your hulu is Kaki Kuda typical of Sumatran pieces. But I'm only a beginner...

14th March 2005, 08:30 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	That hilt form on the gold keris shown by Rasdan -- I've seen it a similar type on Nias 'keris'. Nias 'keris' is not really a keris. The sheath has a elongated sampir, which I believe is supposed to represent oxen ears, while the blade can be a sewar or golok type of blade, mounted on a hilt like this. But this gold keris is dressed new. Traditional aesthetics and rules may not apply. The "horse hoof" hilt is typically found on keris panjang, anak alang, and on Minang kerises -- those small luk blades.

15th March 2005, 02:18 AM	#9
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Here is a link to a prior thread that shows a few close up shots of the first Bugis keris I posted. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=272

14th March 2005, 12:30 PM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I reckon the gold work to be 20th century work, which if we really stretch it back, would be about 100years, but maybe the middle ground of 50years is more likely. The reason why I think the gold work is new is because we don't see similarly elaborately gold-worked Malay/Bugis examples on older pieces in books. There are gold pendok and pendokos, but not with all these gold filigree, and so much of it. I always have the idea that pre-20th century kerises wear gold a lot more sparingly than post-20th century equivalents. Also, the older gold kerises use lower-purity gold (9-14k) whereas the examples we see in the pics here are unabashedly high carat shiny yellow gold.

14th March 2005, 01:49 PM	#11
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Still with the tapak kuda hilt -- I would imagine that, given the same geographical and cultural milieu (S and E Sumatra), the tapak kuda would have been a logical accessory than another design on the other side of the mountains, as it were. Pak Rasdan can solve this mystery -- can you show a shot of the top of the hilt? Or maybe you can tell us if it's a tapak kuda. Whose golden keris is that anyway? Sultan of Selangor? Or, as my imagination runs wild, is that the elusive golden keris salvaged from the Flora del Mel?

14th March 2005, 01:58 PM	#12
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Alamak! Rahman, tapak kuda lah...mana ada kaki kuda punya hulu sih? I'd say that piece has the most recent goldwork though. It lacks the finess of some ofthe earlier work. I'm going to have to disagree with Blu on the goldwork of Rsword's piece though. I'm thinking more mid-19th c. By 1900 most of the Sultan's were under Colonial domination, there was a precipitous decline in the quality of - especially - high end keris and the Raja Raja went off and became good little Westernized puppets, spending thier money on motorcars, waterford crystal and Gordon's gin. There's a similar example in Jensen - attributed to an Acehnese prince but clearly Straits in origin - I can't remember if its dated and I don't have a copy of the book so maybe someone can look it up - if I'm not wrong it was mid-19th. RSword's other piece also strikes me as S. Sumatran Bugis in origin. The blade especially. The dress is about as generically "Bugis" as you could get. Someday I'm going to get off my butt and take a trip down through Siak, Indragiri and Palembang. Have a sniff around and see what turns up. But for the time being I'd say this style is safely S. Sumatran. Actually telling these things apart isn't really all that hard most of the time - there are some wierd ones that turn up but for the most part its pretty straightforward. Hard and fast rules though, will usually get you in trouble. I'm not going to go through a lot of trouble to write out all of the defining characteristics either - that's a hell of a lot of work and I was kinda' saving it for a book but really the best way is the tried and true rule, the more you handle, the more you know. You should all keep in mind that in the mid-1700's there were over 40,000 "Bugis" living in Riau. By the 1860's their descendants had become "Melayu keturunan Bugis", that is "Malay's of Bugis descent." In other words for all intents and purposes - at least for 19th c and later pieces, which is most of them - all of these keris are "Malay" keris anyway.

14th March 2005, 11:25 PM	#13
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Dave, the goldwork I was referring to was on the piece posted by Rasdan, not Rsword. Rsword's keris gold pendok is older, I agree.

4th April 2014, 06:13 PM	#14
Bugis Keris Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Indonesia Samarinda Kalimantan Timur Bugis Posts: 15	This Kriss From North Sumatera. and this kriss familiar own by Batakness culture one culture of in indonesia in familiar with kriss is batak. in usually the owner of this kriss in batak culture call Datuk. Thank YOU

7th June 2017, 03:05 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hi Kerisbiz. I had to delete your link to your keris. All examples must be uploaded directly to the forum if you want to present your keris. This is because linked images disappear over time and leave sometimes large holes in our archived discussions. Thanks!

9th June 2017, 05:52 PM	#17
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	The mods seem to enforce the rules more strictly recently - it definitely is important for keeping the info intact in the future as can be easily seen when browsing old threads which tend to have lots of dead links to pics that are dearly missing nowadays. I do hope you give it another try to upload the pics to this site. If you experience any problems, just ask! From what I can gather from your posting, I'd suggest to open a new thread for your keris rather than adding it to an old one - most pieces benefit from a dedicated discussion! Regards, Kai