Shortening the pesi?

David · 29th September 2007, 03:55 PM

I tend to agree with Rick. I would certainly try to deepen the hilt hole before cutting the pesi. If there is no room on the hilt to do this i would probably consider finding a new hilt for the keris as the one on it would obviously not be right for the keris.

Lew · 29th September 2007, 06:34 PM

Thanks! It was just a passing thought

Lew

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2007, 10:26 PM

Lew, in a general sense I agree with both Rick and David, but the there are other considerations.

The fact of the matter is this:- on a normal mid to low quality blade , I do not know one person in the keris world in Jawa who would hestitate for more time than it took to pick up a hacksaw, to shorten a pesi if a long pesi compromised the fitting of a hilt that he wanted to fit.

However, the first line of approach should always be to drill the hilt deeper. If the hilt is the correct type for the blade, there should not be an issue of the pesi being too long.But when you try to fit ,say, a Jawa or Bali keris to a Bugis hilt, then you have a problem. To a degree this problem can sometimes be reduced by bending the pesi to allow it to follow the curve of a Bugis hilt.

When you drill, it is very important to make sure that the hole does not go out through the back of the handle. I've seen literally hundreds of handles where this has happened, and I've done it myself. It helps to avoid this problem if you hold the hilt in your hand when you drill, rather than put it in a vice. With the handle in your hand, you can feel when the drill bit is getting close to the wood.

If a blade is of superior quality, then the preservation of the blade is prioritised, rather than the desire to achieve a visual effect. There is a solid commercial reason for this:- a prime quality blade with a shortened pesi is worth less than a prime quality blade with a complete pesi. The same parameter does not apply to ordinary blades.

There is an esoteric aspect also, however by the people I know who can be considered to really understand the keris, this is regarded pretty much as a matter of "what you don't know won't hurt you". In other words, if you have some sort of belief in the power of a particular keris and you don't know that the pesi has been shortened, for you, that keris has not got any decreased power.

Henk · 30th September 2007, 08:58 AM

Lew,

If you have more of such passing thoughts, just sit in a corner and wait till they're gone

You had the comments of Rick, David and Alan. They said enough.

I know some Dutch fellow collectors who always start to look at the pesi. When the pesi is damaged or broken or even restored because the blade is so old and the pesi is gone, due the centuries of etching, they consider the whole piece as worthless. Reason for that is the esoteric side of keris Rick mentioned.

A. G. Maisey · 30th September 2007, 09:20 AM

Tell me Henk, do you think that these collectors can differentiate between a keris that truly has an essence, and a keris that does not?

Do you think they can differentiate between a keris that has been made by an empowered empu, and a keris that was made purely as an item of trade?

Or do they believe that all keris are sancrosanct ?

Some years ago a man who is very close to the top of the keris world in Jawa, and who is considered by some people to be a living national treasure made the remark to me that in his opinion most of the "mystical-magical" beliefs associated with the keris could be traced back to either a direct or an indirect influence of the Dutch.

This is most definitely not to say that there is no esoteric nature to the keris, but it is to say that the way in which that esoteric nature is understood can vary greatly between the understanding of a Javanese or Balinese person, and the understanding of somebody from outside the culture.

Henk · 30th September 2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Tell me Henk, do you think that these collectors can differentiate between a keris that truly has an essence, and a keris that does not?

Alan, I don't think, if you don't mind. I was introduced by a famous Dutch collector and met some other collectors. The owner of the collection told us that he did feel anything of the presences of essences in his keris. He just collected keris, sorted to geographic origin, pamortype and also on beauty of the dress. Last was not most important, but still.
Another collector told us he could feel the pressence of an essence in the keris. Strong, weak or abscent. What is the truth? I don't know. If somebody tells me he can feel the presence of a spirit, who am I to deny it? I only can make my own conclusions just like we all do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Do you think they can differentiate between a keris that has been made by an empowered empu, and a keris that was made purely as an item of trade?

Or do they believe that all keris are sancrosanct ?

For this question, Alan, I only can give you my opinion that I think when a person who says he is able to feel the presence of an essence, and he confirms the presence of an essence, he will tell you that such a keris is certainly made by an empowered empu. If not, I think the discussion is how the keris is judged as an object. Is the keris old and antique or is it new and made in the traditional way? And if it is a new made keris, for what purpose was it made?
But they don't believe all keris are sancrosanct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Some years ago a man who is very close to the top of the keris world in Jawa, and who is considered by some people to be a living national treasure made the remark to me that in his opinion most of the "mystical-magical" beliefs associated with the keris could be traced back to either a direct or an indirect influence of the Dutch.

This is most definitely not to say that there is no esoteric nature to the keris, but it is to say that the way in which that esoteric nature is understood can vary greatly between the understanding of a Javanese or Balinese person, and the understanding of somebody from outside the culture.

In this last part Alan, I think we can find the answer. The presence of the Dutch had a strong influence in the Indonesian culture. The things the Dutch saw or didn't see, and what they couldn't understand. But we Dutch want to understand everything. Make a story of it with some spooky ingredients and blow live in it....... Isn't that human nature?

Personally I try to avoid these discussions. Discussions about belief or religion are endless and never result in right or wrong, good or bad.
I only gave my experience with other Dutch keris collectors and in my answers above, the opinion of the collectors who experienced the presence of essence.
If someone tells me he feels the presence of an essence I will respect his belief. What I think or believe is not important, or like a member on this forum once said "buy the keris, not the story".

David · 30th September 2007, 06:10 PM

Alan, i understand the seperation you are trying to make, but personally i would still rather solve the problem of fitting a hilt by adjusting the hilt, not the pesi, even on a mid or low quality blade. This is not because i believe all keris to be sancrosanct, but because in the end i do value the overall integrity of the blade over the dress regardless of the quality or esorteric nature of that blade. If a hilt cannot be adjusted to fit a particular pesi it would seem to me that it is not the correct hilt for that blade. I would then find another more accomadating one. I don't think i would personally be likely to be trying to force a bugis Jawa demam onto a Balinese or Jawanese blade so i would imagine that there usually should be some room for drilling in the hilt itself.

29th September 2007, 03:55 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I tend to agree with Rick. I would certainly try to deepen the hilt hole before cutting the pesi. If there is no room on the hilt to do this i would probably consider finding a new hilt for the keris as the one on it would obviously not be right for the keris.

29th September 2007, 06:34 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Thanks! It was just a passing thought Lew

29th September 2007, 10:26 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Lew, in a general sense I agree with both Rick and David, but the there are other considerations. The fact of the matter is this:- on a normal mid to low quality blade , I do not know one person in the keris world in Jawa who would hestitate for more time than it took to pick up a hacksaw, to shorten a pesi if a long pesi compromised the fitting of a hilt that he wanted to fit. However, the first line of approach should always be to drill the hilt deeper. If the hilt is the correct type for the blade, there should not be an issue of the pesi being too long.But when you try to fit ,say, a Jawa or Bali keris to a Bugis hilt, then you have a problem. To a degree this problem can sometimes be reduced by bending the pesi to allow it to follow the curve of a Bugis hilt. When you drill, it is very important to make sure that the hole does not go out through the back of the handle. I've seen literally hundreds of handles where this has happened, and I've done it myself. It helps to avoid this problem if you hold the hilt in your hand when you drill, rather than put it in a vice. With the handle in your hand, you can feel when the drill bit is getting close to the wood. If a blade is of superior quality, then the preservation of the blade is prioritised, rather than the desire to achieve a visual effect. There is a solid commercial reason for this:- a prime quality blade with a shortened pesi is worth less than a prime quality blade with a complete pesi. The same parameter does not apply to ordinary blades. There is an esoteric aspect also, however by the people I know who can be considered to really understand the keris, this is regarded pretty much as a matter of "what you don't know won't hurt you". In other words, if you have some sort of belief in the power of a particular keris and you don't know that the pesi has been shortened, for you, that keris has not got any decreased power.

30th September 2007, 08:58 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Lew, If you have more of such passing thoughts, just sit in a corner and wait till they're gone You had the comments of Rick, David and Alan. They said enough. I know some Dutch fellow collectors who always start to look at the pesi. When the pesi is damaged or broken or even restored because the blade is so old and the pesi is gone, due the centuries of etching, they consider the whole piece as worthless. Reason for that is the esoteric side of keris Rick mentioned.

30th September 2007, 09:20 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Tell me Henk, do you think that these collectors can differentiate between a keris that truly has an essence, and a keris that does not? Do you think they can differentiate between a keris that has been made by an empowered empu, and a keris that was made purely as an item of trade? Or do they believe that all keris are sancrosanct ? Some years ago a man who is very close to the top of the keris world in Jawa, and who is considered by some people to be a living national treasure made the remark to me that in his opinion most of the "mystical-magical" beliefs associated with the keris could be traced back to either a direct or an indirect influence of the Dutch. This is most definitely not to say that there is no esoteric nature to the keris, but it is to say that the way in which that esoteric nature is understood can vary greatly between the understanding of a Javanese or Balinese person, and the understanding of somebody from outside the culture.

30th September 2007, 06:10 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Alan, i understand the seperation you are trying to make, but personally i would still rather solve the problem of fitting a hilt by adjusting the hilt, not the pesi, even on a mid or low quality blade. This is not because i believe all keris to be sancrosanct, but because in the end i do value the overall integrity of the blade over the dress regardless of the quality or esorteric nature of that blade. If a hilt cannot be adjusted to fit a particular pesi it would seem to me that it is not the correct hilt for that blade. I would then find another more accomadating one. I don't think i would personally be likely to be trying to force a bugis Jawa demam onto a Balinese or Jawanese blade so i would imagine that there usually should be some room for drilling in the hilt itself.