Seven spears from same origin?

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 07:58 PM

Thank you Dennee
My question was more towards the quantity of barbs. Usualy harpoon like devices have much less quantity of them, i would think, and still they do the job.
So i thaught that the exuberant amount of barbs would be somehow for exhibiting.

Thanks a lot for your qualifyed input, Freddy. But as i told Tim, the price the seller wants for them is unreasonable, so i am afraid i will have to let them go.
Dank u wel
fernando

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2007, 08:16 PM

These appear very similar to spears of the Mahdist period in the Sudan. According to information from a large Sudanese collection, each man was supposed to carry at least three spears into battle. One of 8-10 ft. long as well as two shorter ones. The short ones were hurled from close range before assault with the long spear.
Since the shorter ones were to be thrown, thus no longer required by the warrior, it would make sense that these vicious barbed features would be intended to disable the victim because they could not be withdrawn.

It seems that in a discussion I once had with a young man from Darfur, he told me that more spears were required to be carried by each warrior, as many as 6 or 7 I think. It was not clear however what size these would have been. The cavalrymen of the Baggara tribe had leather quivers at the horses side filled with spears, but no numbers are given.

katana · 22nd September 2007, 08:50 PM

Hi Fernando,
good find

I really like this type of spear.....although I would not want to be on the 'receiving' end of one

I was lucky enough to find 3 complete spears late 19c/ early 20th...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=zande

Regards David

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 11:15 PM

Thanks for the dinamic input, Jim.
This means that this set of seven blades, all having parts of identical pattern, could have belonged to one same warrior ?!

Hi David
And i thaught all these barbs were to tickle the opponents

Thanks for the link with your nice examples.
This could mean that the seven units posted here could also be from the XIX century ? A coment nobody brought in, yet. As allways, age is of primary importance for me.

David, do you remember how much you have paid for your three blades ?
You could tell me that by PM or email ?

Thanks in advance

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2007, 11:57 PM

Hi Fernando,
Im glad I could add something to the great input already in on these. Its always amazing how much knowledge is out there and much of it very specialized. I was lucky to recollect seeing these nasty looking things in a Sudanese collection during intense research on kaskaras a while back.

The concepts presented concerning hunting weapons is well placed, and I believe I recall some very long 'arrows' with such features used in the Philippines, possibly Igorot, but I cannot claim that with any certainty. I leave that to those in that field of study.

The use of barbs on projectile weapons has been discussed before on harpoons, which were mentioned here also, and they were indeed a means of securing the prey. In study of American Indian arrows, it is noted that heads on hunting arrows were deliberately loosely mounted as described .

The comments on elaborate design or intimidating features on African weapons is certainly well placed also. In many instances there are weapons in many tribal regions intended to appear terrifying or threatening. Such 'psychological warfare' was often an important element of tribal warfare and traditional culture in the assertion of power and control.

Really nice pieces, and indeed might have belonged to a single warrior, so I can agree with wanting to keep them together.

I would be very surprised if these were not 19th c. and as noted, of the Mahdist period.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 23rd September 2007, 01:00 PM

The Roman pilum had a thin shaft between the spear head and the wooden haft. Designed to 'bend' on impact so that the spear could not be thrown back at them. I would imagine that the barbs were a solution to the same problem. Imbedded in a shield and hard to remove, the shield would be heavy and unwieldly, nullifying the defence of your enemy and also preventing them being thrown back. Obviously those that hit their human targets would be also difficult and painful to remove even if they struck non-vital areas of the body. The 'complete' spears that I have are firmly fixed so removing the shaft from the 'imbedded' spear head would not be an option (in the heat of battle.)
I can imagine trying to defend yourself with 6 foot of spear protruding from your body would not be an ideal situation.

My belief is that the triangular barbed heads are mainly for war, the smaller 'oval' headed are hunting / war and the last 'needle pointed' version is likely for 'fishing'.

fernando · 23rd September 2007, 09:16 PM

Is everybody forgetting another use for Zande spears?
I have just read they used them for trading marriages. It seems as the bridgegroom has to give the girls father some ten pieces, within time prior to the comitment.
Perhaps these seven blades were part of a dowry, as the bride fled before the entangling took place

Maybe only the unshafted blades were handed over, in these rituals. That would explain why these specific examples don't show any traces of shafts having been in place ... my fantasy.

fernando

22nd September 2007, 07:58 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Dennee My question was more towards the quantity of barbs. Usualy harpoon like devices have much less quantity of them, i would think, and still they do the job. So i thaught that the exuberant amount of barbs would be somehow for exhibiting. Thanks a lot for your qualifyed input, Freddy. But as i told Tim, the price the seller wants for them is unreasonable, so i am afraid i will have to let them go. Dank u wel fernando

22nd September 2007, 08:16 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	These appear very similar to spears of the Mahdist period in the Sudan. According to information from a large Sudanese collection, each man was supposed to carry at least three spears into battle. One of 8-10 ft. long as well as two shorter ones. The short ones were hurled from close range before assault with the long spear. Since the shorter ones were to be thrown, thus no longer required by the warrior, it would make sense that these vicious barbed features would be intended to disable the victim because they could not be withdrawn. It seems that in a discussion I once had with a young man from Darfur, he told me that more spears were required to be carried by each warrior, as many as 6 or 7 I think. It was not clear however what size these would have been. The cavalrymen of the Baggara tribe had leather quivers at the horses side filled with spears, but no numbers are given.

22nd September 2007, 08:50 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fernando, good find I really like this type of spear.....although I would not want to be on the 'receiving' end of one I was lucky enough to find 3 complete spears late 19c/ early 20th... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=zande Regards David

22nd September 2007, 11:15 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for the dinamic input, Jim. This means that this set of seven blades, all having parts of identical pattern, could have belonged to one same warrior ?! Hi David And i thaught all these barbs were to tickle the opponents Thanks for the link with your nice examples. This could mean that the seven units posted here could also be from the XIX century ? A coment nobody brought in, yet. As allways, age is of primary importance for me. David, do you remember how much you have paid for your three blades ? You could tell me that by PM or email ? Thanks in advance

22nd September 2007, 11:57 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Fernando, Im glad I could add something to the great input already in on these. Its always amazing how much knowledge is out there and much of it very specialized. I was lucky to recollect seeing these nasty looking things in a Sudanese collection during intense research on kaskaras a while back. The concepts presented concerning hunting weapons is well placed, and I believe I recall some very long 'arrows' with such features used in the Philippines, possibly Igorot, but I cannot claim that with any certainty. I leave that to those in that field of study. The use of barbs on projectile weapons has been discussed before on harpoons, which were mentioned here also, and they were indeed a means of securing the prey. In study of American Indian arrows, it is noted that heads on hunting arrows were deliberately loosely mounted as described . The comments on elaborate design or intimidating features on African weapons is certainly well placed also. In many instances there are weapons in many tribal regions intended to appear terrifying or threatening. Such 'psychological warfare' was often an important element of tribal warfare and traditional culture in the assertion of power and control. Really nice pieces, and indeed might have belonged to a single warrior, so I can agree with wanting to keep them together. I would be very surprised if these were not 19th c. and as noted, of the Mahdist period. All the best, Jim

23rd September 2007, 01:00 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	The Roman pilum had a thin shaft between the spear head and the wooden haft. Designed to 'bend' on impact so that the spear could not be thrown back at them. I would imagine that the barbs were a solution to the same problem. Imbedded in a shield and hard to remove, the shield would be heavy and unwieldly, nullifying the defence of your enemy and also preventing them being thrown back. Obviously those that hit their human targets would be also difficult and painful to remove even if they struck non-vital areas of the body. The 'complete' spears that I have are firmly fixed so removing the shaft from the 'imbedded' spear head would not be an option (in the heat of battle.) I can imagine trying to defend yourself with 6 foot of spear protruding from your body would not be an ideal situation. My belief is that the triangular barbed heads are mainly for war, the smaller 'oval' headed are hunting / war and the last 'needle pointed' version is likely for 'fishing'.

23rd September 2007, 09:16 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Is everybody forgetting another use for Zande spears? I have just read they used them for trading marriages. It seems as the bridgegroom has to give the girls father some ten pieces, within time prior to the comitment. Perhaps these seven blades were part of a dowry, as the bride fled before the entangling took place Maybe only the unshafted blades were handed over, in these rituals. That would explain why these specific examples don't show any traces of shafts having been in place ... my fantasy. fernando