Afghan tribal sabre. Tulwar or Shamshir?

spiral · 19th September 2007, 06:20 PM

mmmm I was watching that one when it was still cheap

the chape looked very Afghan border tribal to me.

Seen many similar on Khyber swords.

Is it missing rivit in handle? hard to tell in photo?

Spiral

rand · 19th September 2007, 06:56 PM

Hey Tim,

Very interesting Tulwar you have added to you collection of metal stories. Looking past the wear you see what was once a sumptuos sword. Its Indo-Muslim Panjabi-Rajput hilt (Rawson) overlaid with silver in a large floral design, its Indian shallow curved double edged tip (wootz?) watered blade in contrast to a well formed cartouche sparkling inlaid (?) with a high carot gold standing out against its silver clad hosting hilt.

For a description its a great example of wear via sharpening, its dramatic just how much this blade has been resharpened, also indicates possibly a solid wootz blade with no iron core. The floral decoration on the hilt a type of inlay where large lines are cut into the iron followed by silver hammered in in thick overlay with designs then chased into the silver (all worn off). In general the larger designs used to decorate the hilt indicate earlier work.

The cartouche looks familiar and will probably not be to hard to identify, maybe post a better photo of it. The fuller would have originally been well defined and symetrical, not the varied shape groove we see now caused by too little care taken while polishing or cleaning.

This sword has served its master for a long time......

rand

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 06:57 PM

Yes a rivet is missing the hole was blocked with dirt. It goes through the blade and the other side of the handle. Does not seem to have had any effect on the blade handle fit. I cannot hide my disappointment but it is a real weapon. Circumstance and opportunity may be the inspiration of this sword rather than expression which is more my thing but that does not lessen the fact that some brave sole took the British Indian army on with it. Respect.

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 07:03 PM

Well thank you Rand. I know nothing about this area except this blade is still able to nip my finger every time I examine it. I am starting to feel a little better.

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 07:19 PM

So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

spiral · 19th September 2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

Tim can you do close up of chape? as I recal it was typical Afghan tribal work, I didnt keep the link, I think you paid a fair price, {I was after a bargain.} In my limited expierience lots of Afghan weapons went through newer scabbards etc, whenever neccasary.

I know an impecibly provinanced private collection of Afghan pieces all pre. or at least 1920 in which I estimate at least 70% of them could easily have replaced handels or scabards. But the replacment are genuine ,ethnographic & from thier working history as tribal & Afghan army weapons. The fit & work & were used in situ. I own 3 of them myself.

Spiral

Ferguson · 19th September 2007, 09:32 PM

I think it's beautiful. Glad you're warming up to it.

Beer + Ebay =

Been there done that.

Steve

spiral · 19th September 2007, 09:50 PM

I would also add Ive seen Afghan tribal cartouches that are purely ingraved without any infill, just chiseled out, twice they have been on British/Indian/Nepali army style kukris that were most likely captured battle spoils.

Its all good history in my book.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2007, 09:48 PM

This sabre is a talwar, and the blade is clearly not a shamshir blade, which had no ricasso. This blade form has the very pronounced ricasso, and almost recessed blade edge. It is puzzling in determining exactly what regions or who favored these open hilt talwars, or for that matter the exact period in which they were used. This example appears latter 19th c. and the form is known to have been used from Sind as far as Lahore to the east.

There does not really seem to be anything about this tulwar that would suggest Afghan associations, which is not to say it could never have gotten that far north. I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape.
The rivet through the chowk does seem to have some association to presumed far north talwars when considering concurrent discussions on talwars presently running, but that entirely speculative.

Regarding the 'onion' motif on the blade, where has this been seen before? I cannot recall seeing this, and I am wondering if it actually represents an onion. The concentric circle motif on the hilt seems solar oriented, but could be floral considering the leaves in the pommel dish. Any thoughts on what flowers or leaves may be represented?

spiral · 20th September 2007, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape.

Actualy I was thinking of the sales photos on ebay Jim that showed this chape as a typical mix of brass & copper work full of course floral motifs, fairly Identical to many older Khyber scabberd chapes Ive owned or seen.

Spiral

Montino Bourbon · 20th September 2007, 01:44 AM

I think it's a very fine sword; nice profile, looks good, unusual hilt, feels good in the hand, nice scabbard; what's not to like?

As Spock said in "Amok time', one of the seminal 'Star Trek' episodes...

"Sometimes 'having' is not as good as 'wanting'",

19th September 2007, 06:56 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Tulwat with silver inlay Hey Tim, Very interesting Tulwar you have added to you collection of metal stories. Looking past the wear you see what was once a sumptuos sword. Its Indo-Muslim Panjabi-Rajput hilt (Rawson) overlaid with silver in a large floral design, its Indian shallow curved double edged tip (wootz?) watered blade in contrast to a well formed cartouche sparkling inlaid (?) with a high carot gold standing out against its silver clad hosting hilt. For a description its a great example of wear via sharpening, its dramatic just how much this blade has been resharpened, also indicates possibly a solid wootz blade with no iron core. The floral decoration on the hilt a type of inlay where large lines are cut into the iron followed by silver hammered in in thick overlay with designs then chased into the silver (all worn off). In general the larger designs used to decorate the hilt indicate earlier work. The cartouche looks familiar and will probably not be to hard to identify, maybe post a better photo of it. The fuller would have originally been well defined and symetrical, not the varied shape groove we see now caused by too little care taken while polishing or cleaning. This sword has served its master for a long time...... rand

20th September 2007, 01:44 AM	#11
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Don't be disappointed... I think it's a very fine sword; nice profile, looks good, unusual hilt, feels good in the hand, nice scabbard; what's not to like? As Spock said in "Amok time', one of the seminal 'Star Trek' episodes... "Sometimes 'having' is not as good as 'wanting'",

19th September 2007, 06:20 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmm I was watching that one when it was still cheap the chape looked very Afghan border tribal to me. Seen many similar on Khyber swords. Is it missing rivit in handle? hard to tell in photo? Spiral

19th September 2007, 06:57 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Yes a rivet is missing the hole was blocked with dirt. It goes through the blade and the other side of the handle. Does not seem to have had any effect on the blade handle fit. I cannot hide my disappointment but it is a real weapon. Circumstance and opportunity may be the inspiration of this sword rather than expression which is more my thing but that does not lessen the fact that some brave sole took the British Indian army on with it. Respect.

19th September 2007, 07:03 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Well thank you Rand. I know nothing about this area except this blade is still able to nip my finger every time I examine it. I am starting to feel a little better.

19th September 2007, 07:19 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

19th September 2007, 09:32 PM	#7
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	I think it's beautiful. Glad you're warming up to it. Beer + Ebay = Been there done that. Steve

19th September 2007, 09:50 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I would also add Ive seen Afghan tribal cartouches that are purely ingraved without any infill, just chiseled out, twice they have been on British/Indian/Nepali army style kukris that were most likely captured battle spoils. Its all good history in my book. Spiral

19th September 2007, 09:48 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	This sabre is a talwar, and the blade is clearly not a shamshir blade, which had no ricasso. This blade form has the very pronounced ricasso, and almost recessed blade edge. It is puzzling in determining exactly what regions or who favored these open hilt talwars, or for that matter the exact period in which they were used. This example appears latter 19th c. and the form is known to have been used from Sind as far as Lahore to the east. There does not really seem to be anything about this tulwar that would suggest Afghan associations, which is not to say it could never have gotten that far north. I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape. The rivet through the chowk does seem to have some association to presumed far north talwars when considering concurrent discussions on talwars presently running, but that entirely speculative. Regarding the 'onion' motif on the blade, where has this been seen before? I cannot recall seeing this, and I am wondering if it actually represents an onion. The concentric circle motif on the hilt seems solar oriented, but could be floral considering the leaves in the pommel dish. Any thoughts on what flowers or leaves may be represented?