Island made sword

scratch · 19th September 2007, 09:25 AM

Thank you for the welcome Henk

Sorry if I jumped the gun but as this is one of the friendly forums I thought I must have caused offence somehow. My sincere apologies for my misinterpretation

Part of me wanted to think that this blade is japanese but the advice I received, including handling 2 old pieces, they were very light and meticulously finished, led me to believe it was as suggested an island made sword/jeep spring sword.
I have the fittings but thought they might bias the opinion on blade, I will be happy to take pics of them, they may not be original if this is a japanese blade.
I would be flabbergasted and excited if this proves to be the case! In different lights the steel is interesting.
Thank you for the communication

Kind regards

Daniel

Bill M · 19th September 2007, 10:46 AM

It is certainly a Japanese design blade. Difficult to tell the quality from your pictures and the state of polish, but I would not call it "rubbish." It has a nice curve (sori) and clean lines.

Since the cutting edge is less than 24" it would be classed as a WAKIZASHI.

These blades were commonly carried by the non-warrior class as a main blade or by the Samurai class as a secondary sword to the longer blade Katana (over 24" blade cutting edge)

It appears to have some forging flaws or more probably rust pits. If you could take more detailed pictures of the tip and the spine, it would help in further classification.

I would suggest that you do not clean the tang, but are there any markings on the tang? This is where a maker often added details that would help in classification. These are sometimes difficult to photograph, but can be shown by careful rubbing. If there are Japanese characters there, I can show you how to make copies that are more easily seen than with a photograph.

From the shape of the blade I would guess it was made in the last few hundred years, possibly the last century. I can see a faint line where it looks like it has a hardened edge or hamon. If you want to know more, I suggest you visit this link to a website hosted by one of our members.

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

It would help to see the fittings.

The people on this board would be able to give you much better information.
http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessageboard/

Welcome to Ethnographic Arms and Armor! Hope that you continue to visit and post.

Henk · 19th September 2007, 06:43 PM

Daniel,

Bill is right, although japanese blades are not my field of knowledge I also thought to see some details that gave me the idea that this sword isn't rubbish at all. The links Bill gave you can be of a great help. After all that is the forum of the japanese blades.

Bill advised you not to clean the tang. Stronger and that is the knowledge I have about japanese swords, you never ever should touch the tang. The rust on the tang can tell someone who is familair with japanese blades how old the sword is. Even when the tang isn't marked.

And yes, we would love to see the fittings. That makes a sword complete and gives us an idea how the complete piece looks like.
We don't only like to discuss blades, but also we like to lean back in our chair and admire the beauty of a weapon.

scratch · 20th September 2007, 08:08 AM

G'day all,
Gentlemen, Thank you for giving me some direction regarding this piece

A japanese blade

I'm am pleasantly astonished!
Fortunately I left the tang alone, just in case. I can discern no writing. There is a divit on end of tang. Hopefully these photos of the spine will show why I allowed very little hope of a japanese ID, I have kukris that have a much finer spine. The fittings, scabbard will bring little viewing pleasure I think. The blade collar has gone missing at the moment, It is soldered brass. The blade does not align with the carved space of scabbard, the blade is wider and shorter.
Again my apologies for my lack of patience. It was inappropiate of me.
Thanks for the starting point. Hopefully I can share something of a more appropiate nature next time.

Kind regards

Daniel

Henk · 20th September 2007, 06:57 PM

Daniel,

Looking at the fittings of this sword I think they are the remains of the original fittings and this sword probably is a japanese WWII sword, a shin gunto.

scratch · 21st September 2007, 04:48 AM

Henk
Thanks for the specification.
That does make sense, as to me this has the feel of something made with durability being the guiding factor. Before purchasing this I located a site "Military swords of imperial japan(gunto)" from a metallurgical perspective it was interesting reading, I thought. On a whim I thought I would test the edge of this blade against a PPK XL(a modern reproduction katana) that i am not particularly fond of, by dragging the edge of older blade over newer blade. The older blade began to cut into the newer blade like a hot knife through butter, literally. I reversed the process, the new blade skated across older blade becoming blunt in the process. This probably says something about both blades.
I would like to commit myself to the belief that this is definitely a japanese blade, whilst I believe it is a good blade, the spine is so crude and rough and I find it hard to reconcile with other features of the blade, perhaps it was a prototype/experimental piece. This is idle conjecture on my part.
Gentlemen, Thanks again for the direction, it is appreciated.

Kind regards

Daniel S

scratch · 21st September 2007, 05:03 AM

Missing blade collar.

19th September 2007, 10:46 AM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	It is certainly a Japanese design blade. Difficult to tell the quality from your pictures and the state of polish, but I would not call it "rubbish." It has a nice curve (sori) and clean lines. Since the cutting edge is less than 24" it would be classed as a WAKIZASHI. These blades were commonly carried by the non-warrior class as a main blade or by the Samurai class as a secondary sword to the longer blade Katana (over 24" blade cutting edge) It appears to have some forging flaws or more probably rust pits. If you could take more detailed pictures of the tip and the spine, it would help in further classification. I would suggest that you do not clean the tang, but are there any markings on the tang? This is where a maker often added details that would help in classification. These are sometimes difficult to photograph, but can be shown by careful rubbing. If there are Japanese characters there, I can show you how to make copies that are more easily seen than with a photograph. From the shape of the blade I would guess it was made in the last few hundred years, possibly the last century. I can see a faint line where it looks like it has a hardened edge or hamon. If you want to know more, I suggest you visit this link to a website hosted by one of our members. http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm It would help to see the fittings. The people on this board would be able to give you much better information. http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessageboard/ Welcome to Ethnographic Arms and Armor! Hope that you continue to visit and post. Last edited by Bill Marsh; 19th September 2007 at 11:06 AM.

20th September 2007, 08:08 AM	#4
scratch Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 96	G'day all, Gentlemen, Thank you for giving me some direction regarding this piece A japanese blade I'm am pleasantly astonished! Fortunately I left the tang alone, just in case. I can discern no writing. There is a divit on end of tang. Hopefully these photos of the spine will show why I allowed very little hope of a japanese ID, I have kukris that have a much finer spine. The fittings, scabbard will bring little viewing pleasure I think. The blade collar has gone missing at the moment, It is soldered brass. The blade does not align with the carved space of scabbard, the blade is wider and shorter. Again my apologies for my lack of patience. It was inappropiate of me. Thanks for the starting point. Hopefully I can share something of a more appropiate nature next time. Kind regards Daniel Attached Images

21st September 2007, 05:03 AM	#7
scratch Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 96	Missing blade collar. Attached Images

19th September 2007, 09:25 AM	#1
scratch Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 96	Thank you for the welcome Henk Sorry if I jumped the gun but as this is one of the friendly forums I thought I must have caused offence somehow. My sincere apologies for my misinterpretation Part of me wanted to think that this blade is japanese but the advice I received, including handling 2 old pieces, they were very light and meticulously finished, led me to believe it was as suggested an island made sword/jeep spring sword. I have the fittings but thought they might bias the opinion on blade, I will be happy to take pics of them, they may not be original if this is a japanese blade. I would be flabbergasted and excited if this proves to be the case! In different lights the steel is interesting. Thank you for the communication Kind regards Daniel

19th September 2007, 06:43 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Daniel, Bill is right, although japanese blades are not my field of knowledge I also thought to see some details that gave me the idea that this sword isn't rubbish at all. The links Bill gave you can be of a great help. After all that is the forum of the japanese blades. Bill advised you not to clean the tang. Stronger and that is the knowledge I have about japanese swords, you never ever should touch the tang. The rust on the tang can tell someone who is familair with japanese blades how old the sword is. Even when the tang isn't marked. And yes, we would love to see the fittings. That makes a sword complete and gives us an idea how the complete piece looks like. We don't only like to discuss blades, but also we like to lean back in our chair and admire the beauty of a weapon.

20th September 2007, 06:57 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Daniel, Looking at the fittings of this sword I think they are the remains of the original fittings and this sword probably is a japanese WWII sword, a shin gunto.

21st September 2007, 04:48 AM	#6
scratch Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 96	Henk Thanks for the specification. That does make sense, as to me this has the feel of something made with durability being the guiding factor. Before purchasing this I located a site "Military swords of imperial japan(gunto)" from a metallurgical perspective it was interesting reading, I thought. On a whim I thought I would test the edge of this blade against a PPK XL(a modern reproduction katana) that i am not particularly fond of, by dragging the edge of older blade over newer blade. The older blade began to cut into the newer blade like a hot knife through butter, literally. I reversed the process, the new blade skated across older blade becoming blunt in the process. This probably says something about both blades. I would like to commit myself to the belief that this is definitely a japanese blade, whilst I believe it is a good blade, the spine is so crude and rough and I find it hard to reconcile with other features of the blade, perhaps it was a prototype/experimental piece. This is idle conjecture on my part. Gentlemen, Thanks again for the direction, it is appreciated. Kind regards Daniel S