A Kris-Tanto or hybridation as an answer

Jim McDougall · 10th September 2007, 06:54 AM

Just thought I would say this session of art appreciation 101 has been most interesting!

and I am glad that Antonio rejoined us here.
I would like to note that I honestly have always been focused on the study of antique arms and armor with focus on ethnographic edged weapons and have never really thought much about modern custom made edged weapons.
Actually, I never really liked the idea of reproduction or custom pieces since they had no historical value so could not be studied or researched

While I can claim no particular expertise in the study of art, I have very much enjoyed studying its historical applications and of course its considerations in the material culture associated with ethnographic studies. I do not believe that one must be an expert in art to genuinely appreciate it, and has has been seen here, certainly not to have adamate opinions on particular forms of it.

When I first saw the weapon Antonio posted here, I was more than impressed by it, and realized that I could admire and enjoy viewing this weapon as art, at least in my own perception. My perspective on the study of antique edged weapons remains completely uncompromised, and I have gained new perspective on these custom weapons.
Thank you very much Antonio for posting this beautiful example of well designed craftsmanship.

Since we are all sharing our opinions, I wanted to express mine.

Very best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 10th September 2007, 08:31 AM

Antonio's work displays confidence, something needed to show it here, which is more than I can say for myself. In doing so the full spectrum of opinion must be expected.

Ian · 10th September 2007, 01:33 PM

Thanks Tim, my thoughts also. Antonio's work is an inspired piece of art, with ethnographic weapons as its source. As art, it does not need to mean anything in the original culture(s), nor be functional. Just something to appreciate for its form and elegance (not that traditional arms lack form and elegance

).

A challenging piece, Antonio. Thanks for showing it here.

Ian.

Mark · 10th September 2007, 04:08 PM

Speaking as a moderator, I think the discussion has settled with a fair understanding on all sides, and I am happy to see that. Some feathers were ruffled (innovation & change tends to evoke that response), but I am very glad that the initial testiness has cooled off. In response to one unanswered question, whether or not this qualifies as an "ethnographic" weapon for the purposes of this forum, it of course pushes the boundries, as does the design itself. Having authored in part the mission statement of the forum, I can say that the intent to exclude "custom" knives was directed at contemporary blades that are either essentially reproductions (often of excellent quality) of historical forms, and modern designs that are not based on any particular historical model. It is hard to classify a design such as Antonios, but I think it is enough of a cultural expression, both as a reflection of past forms and as a contemporary reaction to these.

Speaking as a "private citizen," I think the design is interesting and dramatic, and the workmanship is superb, but doesn't strike a cord with me personally. That is probably because I don't have a particularly strong interest in either Japanese or Philippine blades. After all, they are not dha.

I do see a functional aspect of the baca baca, actually, as it substitutes for the habaki that appears on a traditional tanto.

Hybridizations and interpretations, often dramatic ones, are a real part of the history of weapons. An example I posted on recently is the hybrid daab/katana/keris that is the subject of this thread.

asomotif · 11th September 2007, 04:43 PM

Dear Antonio,

You touched a lot of collector hearts with this piece. or maybe hurt a lot of collector hearts.

I am more of the 'old school' too, but i am again amazed about the skills and traditional labour that has been put into it.

And as for the influence / hybridation.
In old days warriors would go on a journey or maybe for battle and weapons exchanged, traded or taken from the loosing party would cause influence.
Now we have books / internet / international fairs / seminars.
This is our present way of influencing, so seems fine with me.
As long as it results in these kind of unique objects please continue.

Good luck and best regards,
Willem

10th September 2007, 06:54 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Just thought I would say this session of art appreciation 101 has been most interesting! and I am glad that Antonio rejoined us here. I would like to note that I honestly have always been focused on the study of antique arms and armor with focus on ethnographic edged weapons and have never really thought much about modern custom made edged weapons. Actually, I never really liked the idea of reproduction or custom pieces since they had no historical value so could not be studied or researched While I can claim no particular expertise in the study of art, I have very much enjoyed studying its historical applications and of course its considerations in the material culture associated with ethnographic studies. I do not believe that one must be an expert in art to genuinely appreciate it, and has has been seen here, certainly not to have adamate opinions on particular forms of it. When I first saw the weapon Antonio posted here, I was more than impressed by it, and realized that I could admire and enjoy viewing this weapon as art, at least in my own perception. My perspective on the study of antique edged weapons remains completely uncompromised, and I have gained new perspective on these custom weapons. Thank you very much Antonio for posting this beautiful example of well designed craftsmanship. Since we are all sharing our opinions, I wanted to express mine. Very best regards, Jim

10th September 2007, 08:31 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Antonio's work displays confidence, something needed to show it here, which is more than I can say for myself. In doing so the full spectrum of opinion must be expected.

10th September 2007, 01:33 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Thanks Tim, my thoughts also. Antonio's work is an inspired piece of art, with ethnographic weapons as its source. As art, it does not need to mean anything in the original culture(s), nor be functional. Just something to appreciate for its form and elegance (not that traditional arms lack form and elegance ). A challenging piece, Antonio. Thanks for showing it here. Ian.

10th September 2007, 04:08 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Speaking as a moderator, I think the discussion has settled with a fair understanding on all sides, and I am happy to see that. Some feathers were ruffled (innovation & change tends to evoke that response), but I am very glad that the initial testiness has cooled off. In response to one unanswered question, whether or not this qualifies as an "ethnographic" weapon for the purposes of this forum, it of course pushes the boundries, as does the design itself. Having authored in part the mission statement of the forum, I can say that the intent to exclude "custom" knives was directed at contemporary blades that are either essentially reproductions (often of excellent quality) of historical forms, and modern designs that are not based on any particular historical model. It is hard to classify a design such as Antonios, but I think it is enough of a cultural expression, both as a reflection of past forms and as a contemporary reaction to these. Speaking as a "private citizen," I think the design is interesting and dramatic, and the workmanship is superb, but doesn't strike a cord with me personally. That is probably because I don't have a particularly strong interest in either Japanese or Philippine blades. After all, they are not dha. I do see a functional aspect of the baca baca, actually, as it substitutes for the habaki that appears on a traditional tanto. Hybridizations and interpretations, often dramatic ones, are a real part of the history of weapons. An example I posted on recently is the hybrid daab/katana/keris that is the subject of this thread.

11th September 2007, 04:43 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Dear Antonio, You touched a lot of collector hearts with this piece. or maybe hurt a lot of collector hearts. I am more of the 'old school' too, but i am again amazed about the skills and traditional labour that has been put into it. And as for the influence / hybridation. In old days warriors would go on a journey or maybe for battle and weapons exchanged, traded or taken from the loosing party would cause influence. Now we have books / internet / international fairs / seminars. This is our present way of influencing, so seems fine with me. As long as it results in these kind of unique objects please continue. Good luck and best regards, Willem