Fabulous Mausers 98 inspired sword

Jim McDougall · 7th September 2007, 07:44 PM

Those are excellent observations David, and well placed points. It is always good to see well thought out suggestions and ideas in evaluating the possible provenance and identification of weapons, especially something as unusual as this.
I am inclined to agree with Tim, and am glad he agrees with my suggestions on the possible totemic or symbolic value of this piece. The note on the South Seas cargo cults is well placed, though it does seem amazing that there were tribal groups in Africa this late that had not encountered white explorers. The trade routes and exploration throughout the latter 19th century became more intensive later, but of course it is well known that these African regions still brought the sobriquet 'the dark continent' as so much of the interior was unexplored.
I do think that power symbolism may have been the root of the design of the mounts on this weapon, whether tribal emulation of the understandable fearful guns they experienced with the exposure to Europeans, or even by an adventuresome guide or warrior associated with exploration or trade parties.
In just looking at the effective appearance of this weapon it rather brings to mind the type of altered guns seen in movies such as the sawed off shotguns and holstered rifles that often provided rather dramatic effect in the movies I previously mentioned. In even further retrospect I think of the large ring lever on the guns of "The Rifleman" and Steve McQueens sawed off Winchester (I believe) in "Wanted Dead or Alive". Interestingly such effect has often been employed in so many weapon forms in movies over the years it does no seem at all surprising to think of the same psychological effect being used in the tribal setting as it appeals directly to human nature and senses.

I recall in discussions years ago involving the crocodile mounts on kaskara and some other weapon forms in the Sudan. I suggested that these were quite possibly applied to provide a fearful image to the holder of the weapon, in the totemic sense that he held the power of the crocodile in this case. While there were many suggestions to the contrary that insisted these were simply dramatically stylized pieces made to impress tourists, I felt that this was not the case. Since the practice of slaving was of course well known in the southern Sudan , and incursions further south into regions even as far as those we are considering here, the much feared crocodile would add a very feared image for the individual wearing it.
I just have added this instance to support the concept of what Tim and I have suggested concerning the purpose of the image projected.

An ethnographic weapon that brings forth this much thought and discussion is indeed a treasure! and I hope others will join in as well ! I look forward to more thoughts on the hilt also, what other weapons might have influenced the shape of the mounts?

Tim, can you tell us more on that bayonet looking item posted with this?

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2007, 08:21 PM

Jim there was a thread on the bayonet type weapon I started some years ago. I have looked in the archive but I cannot find it, perhaps I have had one too many. Anyway after dismissing Asia and other places with much supportive evidence German Africa became very apparent. As to not seeing white people in Africa in the 1890s. One has to think of the problems of travel. Vast lands, lack of water, no roads. Very dispersed often small communities that have not been caught in the head light of history like the big names "Massai" that put up resistance untill thier resources could no longer finance war. There are books that tell of this situation. I can see a relation to first contact in the South Seas, only difference is that Africa has always had iron.

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2007, 08:38 PM

I have found the thread. Like in the old west it is only the big tribes and thier names that are with us in the 21 century but there were many other groups around, at present this is only just still so in Africa.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=east+africa

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2007, 01:17 AM

Thanks Tim, that was a pretty interesting thread that brought in some great discussion. I'm left with the idea that Berk was right in his assessment that the M1871 Mauser sword bayonet was closest, and that this appears to be a locally made interpretation. The scabbard, especially with the spike seems to correspond with the dagger type item on the thread with one on its scabbard. I believe it was suggested to have come from Tanganyika or regions around there.
It is most interesting that there was so much German colonial activity there around WWI and this is an excellent example of much studied wars where there were theaters of action seldom discussed. Returning once again to the movies, I am reminded of "African Queen" and the presence of the German navy in Africa (somebody get the popcorn, here I go again!

Really though, the fact that this interpretation of a Mauser bayonet appears to be from these regions in Africa tends to strengthen the suggestion that this firearm themed sword is also from the same regions.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 25th October 2007, 09:16 PM

This link eludes to the first white contact with the Turkana in 1888 so if we bere that in mind also the vastness in late 19th century Africa and other less celebrated groups of people, this weapon strikes me as a very fundamental response to a new world. There is an 88 mauser that could equally be the inspiration. To me the blunt nose is more indicative of the 1888 model
http://www.everyculture.com/Africa-M...Relations.html

katana · 13th November 2007, 11:33 AM

This recently finished on eBay....and is very relavent to this thread. Different in that the rifle is integeral to the blade (representing a rifle with fixed bayonet ?) and is not a blade 'hidden' within a 'rifle' scabbard.

Stated as 29" long and from Zimbabwe

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=011

Tim Simmons · 13th November 2007, 07:15 PM

Very interesting, looks like a model of the Martini rifle. British influence?

25th October 2007, 09:16 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,846	This link eludes to the first white contact with the Turkana in 1888 so if we bere that in mind also the vastness in late 19th century Africa and other less celebrated groups of people, this weapon strikes me as a very fundamental response to a new world. There is an 88 mauser that could equally be the inspiration. To me the blunt nose is more indicative of the 1888 model http://www.everyculture.com/Africa-M...Relations.html Last edited by Tim Simmons; 26th October 2007 at 07:22 AM. Reason: spelling

13th November 2007, 11:33 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	This recently finished on eBay....and is very relavent to this thread. Different in that the rifle is integeral to the blade (representing a rifle with fixed bayonet ?) and is not a blade 'hidden' within a 'rifle' scabbard. Stated as 29" long and from Zimbabwe http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=011 Attached Images

7th September 2007, 07:44 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,210	Those are excellent observations David, and well placed points. It is always good to see well thought out suggestions and ideas in evaluating the possible provenance and identification of weapons, especially something as unusual as this. I am inclined to agree with Tim, and am glad he agrees with my suggestions on the possible totemic or symbolic value of this piece. The note on the South Seas cargo cults is well placed, though it does seem amazing that there were tribal groups in Africa this late that had not encountered white explorers. The trade routes and exploration throughout the latter 19th century became more intensive later, but of course it is well known that these African regions still brought the sobriquet 'the dark continent' as so much of the interior was unexplored. I do think that power symbolism may have been the root of the design of the mounts on this weapon, whether tribal emulation of the understandable fearful guns they experienced with the exposure to Europeans, or even by an adventuresome guide or warrior associated with exploration or trade parties. In just looking at the effective appearance of this weapon it rather brings to mind the type of altered guns seen in movies such as the sawed off shotguns and holstered rifles that often provided rather dramatic effect in the movies I previously mentioned. In even further retrospect I think of the large ring lever on the guns of "The Rifleman" and Steve McQueens sawed off Winchester (I believe) in "Wanted Dead or Alive". Interestingly such effect has often been employed in so many weapon forms in movies over the years it does no seem at all surprising to think of the same psychological effect being used in the tribal setting as it appeals directly to human nature and senses. I recall in discussions years ago involving the crocodile mounts on kaskara and some other weapon forms in the Sudan. I suggested that these were quite possibly applied to provide a fearful image to the holder of the weapon, in the totemic sense that he held the power of the crocodile in this case. While there were many suggestions to the contrary that insisted these were simply dramatically stylized pieces made to impress tourists, I felt that this was not the case. Since the practice of slaving was of course well known in the southern Sudan , and incursions further south into regions even as far as those we are considering here, the much feared crocodile would add a very feared image for the individual wearing it. I just have added this instance to support the concept of what Tim and I have suggested concerning the purpose of the image projected. An ethnographic weapon that brings forth this much thought and discussion is indeed a treasure! and I hope others will join in as well ! I look forward to more thoughts on the hilt also, what other weapons might have influenced the shape of the mounts? Tim, can you tell us more on that bayonet looking item posted with this? Best regards, Jim

7th September 2007, 08:21 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,846	Jim there was a thread on the bayonet type weapon I started some years ago. I have looked in the archive but I cannot find it, perhaps I have had one too many. Anyway after dismissing Asia and other places with much supportive evidence German Africa became very apparent. As to not seeing white people in Africa in the 1890s. One has to think of the problems of travel. Vast lands, lack of water, no roads. Very dispersed often small communities that have not been caught in the head light of history like the big names "Massai" that put up resistance untill thier resources could no longer finance war. There are books that tell of this situation. I can see a relation to first contact in the South Seas, only difference is that Africa has always had iron.

7th September 2007, 08:38 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,846	I have found the thread. Like in the old west it is only the big tribes and thier names that are with us in the 21 century but there were many other groups around, at present this is only just still so in Africa. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=east+africa

8th September 2007, 01:17 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,210	Thanks Tim, that was a pretty interesting thread that brought in some great discussion. I'm left with the idea that Berk was right in his assessment that the M1871 Mauser sword bayonet was closest, and that this appears to be a locally made interpretation. The scabbard, especially with the spike seems to correspond with the dagger type item on the thread with one on its scabbard. I believe it was suggested to have come from Tanganyika or regions around there. It is most interesting that there was so much German colonial activity there around WWI and this is an excellent example of much studied wars where there were theaters of action seldom discussed. Returning once again to the movies, I am reminded of "African Queen" and the presence of the German navy in Africa (somebody get the popcorn, here I go again! Really though, the fact that this interpretation of a Mauser bayonet appears to be from these regions in Africa tends to strengthen the suggestion that this firearm themed sword is also from the same regions. Best regards, Jim

13th November 2007, 07:15 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,846	Very interesting, looks like a model of the Martini rifle. British influence?