ANCIENT Indian Weapons (B.C.)

Jim McDougall · 6th September 2007, 08:26 AM

Hi Steven,
Most of the weapons discussed here are more focused on those actually available to collectors, and examples of historical periods relatively recent compared to that of your project. Many of the references we often refer to will have some basic information pertaining to ancient weapons such as,
"Indian Arms and Armour" G.N.Pant ; "The Indian Sword" P. Rawson ; "The Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor" , Stone and certainly a few others. Most of these are often somewhat difficult to obtain and can be expensive so for your purposes possibly interlibrary loan would be best.
Also, while often somewhat elementary in detail on weaponry, the Osprey series such as "Man at Arms" can often be most helpful in establishing good overview in study of historical periods and the armies of the times. There are excellent titles among them that describe and colorfully illustrate many ancient armies including India, Persia and so on. These can be found online and are quite reasonable as they are paperback monographs.

An excellent source for specific questions once you have established certain weapon forms and timeframe would be the arms and armor department at the Metropolitan Museum in New York. As far as the martial arts application pertaining to weapons, the historical data in these would be best found in organizations specific to those disciplines.

Your project sounds intriguing and hopefully these ideas might be of some help. I wish I could offer more detail on the weapons themselves, but the topic is quite broad and most data available is as Alex has noted, mostly applied typologically and from iconographic sources.

Best wishes and good luck on your project,
Jim

Joe · 7th September 2007, 12:46 AM

These may be akin to what you're looking for, but I don't think that they're quite as ancient as you want.

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2007, 01:21 AM

Those are great Joe!!! Can you say a little on what these are and where you found them. They are pretty interesting examples and I'd like to follow up on them as well.
Thanks for posting them,
All best regards,
Jim

Joe · 8th September 2007, 07:06 AM

Thanks Jim. These two came from Hermann Historia, where they were advertised as being ancient Central Indian two-handers, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately, I don't know which auction number they were listed in, so I'm having a tough time finding the original listing...

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2007, 07:34 PM

Thank you for checking that Joe. It seems Hermann Historica does often have great pieces in thier catalogs, and lot of good photos. I only received the flyers which were of course understandably brief in descriptions given the limited space.
I found weapons of this type listed in Stone (p.643) as two handed swords used by Rajputs and Mahrattas, and it is noted that the hollow shafts of the hilts often encased small knives. While the hilts on these examples seem to have disc type elements spaced on the long grips, the example shown in Stone features the fluted brass orbs often seen on them.

It seems these are directly associated with similar two hand weapons with spaced guards from the south and termed 'mel puttah bemoh' (Stone p.444, Egerton 134) with long rapier blades and noted to be from 18th century.

These are very interesting and unusual weapons that seem to have influenced the two hand swords of the Naga in Assam, and illustrate the wide diffusion on weaponry on the Subcontinent. They are however indeed far from the period Steven has inquired on.

All the best,
Jim

Joe · 9th September 2007, 12:34 AM

Ah, thanks for the correction Jim. I'd love to see the examples you're talking about in Stone's book, maybe you could send me a pm?

And sorry that I couldn't have been of more help, Stephen. I don't seem to have any references for swords in that half of Asia that were around before 500 BC.

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2007, 03:04 AM

Hi Joe,
Actually the caption was correct and Central India was indeed the region of the weapons you illustrated, I should have clarified that in my post. The same type weapon you posted actually appears in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" ( p.94 , 8.51) where he notes that these are actually latter 16th c. to early 17th and from the Deccan in Central India. Perhaps someone who has either of these texts could post illustrations?
Thank you again for posting these, although we have not heard from Steven, I certainly do appreciate your response!
All the best,
Jim

7th September 2007, 12:46 AM	#2
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	These may be akin to what you're looking for, but I don't think that they're quite as ancient as you want. Attached Images

6th September 2007, 08:26 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Steven, Most of the weapons discussed here are more focused on those actually available to collectors, and examples of historical periods relatively recent compared to that of your project. Many of the references we often refer to will have some basic information pertaining to ancient weapons such as, "Indian Arms and Armour" G.N.Pant ; "The Indian Sword" P. Rawson ; "The Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor" , Stone and certainly a few others. Most of these are often somewhat difficult to obtain and can be expensive so for your purposes possibly interlibrary loan would be best. Also, while often somewhat elementary in detail on weaponry, the Osprey series such as "Man at Arms" can often be most helpful in establishing good overview in study of historical periods and the armies of the times. There are excellent titles among them that describe and colorfully illustrate many ancient armies including India, Persia and so on. These can be found online and are quite reasonable as they are paperback monographs. An excellent source for specific questions once you have established certain weapon forms and timeframe would be the arms and armor department at the Metropolitan Museum in New York. As far as the martial arts application pertaining to weapons, the historical data in these would be best found in organizations specific to those disciplines. Your project sounds intriguing and hopefully these ideas might be of some help. I wish I could offer more detail on the weapons themselves, but the topic is quite broad and most data available is as Alex has noted, mostly applied typologically and from iconographic sources. Best wishes and good luck on your project, Jim

8th September 2007, 01:21 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Those are great Joe!!! Can you say a little on what these are and where you found them. They are pretty interesting examples and I'd like to follow up on them as well. Thanks for posting them, All best regards, Jim

8th September 2007, 07:06 AM	#4
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Thanks Jim. These two came from Hermann Historia, where they were advertised as being ancient Central Indian two-handers, if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, I don't know which auction number they were listed in, so I'm having a tough time finding the original listing...

8th September 2007, 07:34 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you for checking that Joe. It seems Hermann Historica does often have great pieces in thier catalogs, and lot of good photos. I only received the flyers which were of course understandably brief in descriptions given the limited space. I found weapons of this type listed in Stone (p.643) as two handed swords used by Rajputs and Mahrattas, and it is noted that the hollow shafts of the hilts often encased small knives. While the hilts on these examples seem to have disc type elements spaced on the long grips, the example shown in Stone features the fluted brass orbs often seen on them. It seems these are directly associated with similar two hand weapons with spaced guards from the south and termed 'mel puttah bemoh' (Stone p.444, Egerton 134) with long rapier blades and noted to be from 18th century. These are very interesting and unusual weapons that seem to have influenced the two hand swords of the Naga in Assam, and illustrate the wide diffusion on weaponry on the Subcontinent. They are however indeed far from the period Steven has inquired on. All the best, Jim

9th September 2007, 12:34 AM	#6
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Ah, thanks for the correction Jim. I'd love to see the examples you're talking about in Stone's book, maybe you could send me a pm? And sorry that I couldn't have been of more help, Stephen. I don't seem to have any references for swords in that half of Asia that were around before 500 BC.

9th September 2007, 03:04 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Joe, Actually the caption was correct and Central India was indeed the region of the weapons you illustrated, I should have clarified that in my post. The same type weapon you posted actually appears in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" ( p.94 , 8.51) where he notes that these are actually latter 16th c. to early 17th and from the Deccan in Central India. Perhaps someone who has either of these texts could post illustrations? Thank you again for posting these, although we have not heard from Steven, I certainly do appreciate your response! All the best, Jim