Between Solo and Yogya

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Penangsang. Understood.

I think the ball is in Pak Ganja's court now:-

Pak Ganja, can you please tell us whether it is the Surakarta school of "kerisology", or the Jogjakarta school of "kerisology" that follows most closely the traditions of olden times, be those olden times taken as Majapahit, Mataram, or some other era?

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden,

Of all the places in Tanah Jawa, why Hutan Menataok is chosen by God as the resting place of the Wahyu Keprabon. I always thought that Wahyu Keprabon was only a sign from the Dewata, normally in the form of a light, and it would appear on the chosen Prabhu's forehead? The aura, it was said, can be seen by the people.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Pak Raden,

Of all the places in Tanah Jawa, why Hutan Menataok is chosen by God as the resting place of the Wahyu Keprabon.

Dear Penangsang II,

It is a good question and it is hard to answer. I am afraid if we continue to discuss this matter (wahyu and hutan mentaok), we will break the rule of the game of warung keris. Why? Because the discussion will out of keris topic.

For eluding to be a trespasser (because breaking the law), I would like to ask the moderator (Sir David) and kerislovers to answer Penangsang's question once. So, after that hope we will be back on the track (no more of discussion on wahyu issues)

Why Alas Mentaok while so many jungles and mountains in Jawa?

According to wahyu keprabon, actually this myth is just for its believers. There are several chapters of Jawa civilization. Each chapter has a legend where wahyu keprabon hided before entering to the chosen person. Then, the chosen person becomes Prabu/King/Leader/President (now). Seemingly, there are several wahyu keprabons in Jawa, each wahyu rises in different period of Jawa civilization.

Once upon the time, long before Mataram era (post Majapahit era), Jawa's wahyu keprabon was believed hided in Alas Purwo (Jungle Purwo). So, lots of ambitious men went to this jungle to meditate for getting the wahyu. Ken Arok was one of them. At the end of the day, Ken Arok became the founder of Singosari Kingdom and had a new title, namely Sri Rajasa. He was a king and a founder of new dynasti of kings of Jawa.

Post Majapahit era, some people believed that wahyu keprabon hided in jungle mentaok. Amongst the believers were Ki Agen Mataram, Ki Ageng Mangir and Sultan Hadiwijoyo (Joko Tingkir, he was a soft beleiver). At that period, there was a distinguished sunan. He was Sunan Giri (giri means mountain). Sunan Giri was believed having ability whatever he said would come true. Someday, there was a gathering in Sunan Giri's home. The visitors of that gathering were kings from several regions in Jawa. The aim of their visit to Sunan Giri was to get his blessing to rule Jawa. Amongst those kings was Sultan Hadiwijoyo (and his staff including Ki Ageng Mataram). While everyone enjoyed the party (eating and drinking... perhaps till they dropped), Ki Ageng Mataram took care the garbits wasted crelessly by drunken kings. Sunan Giri paid attention to his special action and asked to his guests who the man was. Sultan Hadiwijoyo responded that that man was one of his staf, namely Ki Ageng Mataram. Sunan Giri told that his descendants (Ki Ageng Mangir) would be rulers of Jawa.

Sultan Hadiwijoyo announced that whoever killed Aryo Penangsang would be rewarded territory wherever he wanted. After killing Arya Penangsang (I ), actually Sutowijoyo's Father (Ki Ageng Mataram) chose jungle mentaok as the reward. Because remembering Sunan Giri statement, Sultan Hadiwijoyo tried to cancel his promise and lured Ki Ageng Mataram to choose other rewards. In short, Ki Ageng Mataram got jungle mentaok. He had never declared as a king because he felt what Sunan Giri said was true. Wahyu keprabon would never for him but, hopefully, for his decendants. After living in jungle mentaok, he always urged Danang Sutowijoyo (Panembahan Senopati) to meditate to realize their dream. Where? in parts of jungle mantaok, especially in mBanglampir Hill, Dlepih Khayangan fountain and, sure, South Sea's coast. Based on history, in its golden era, Mataram territory was most of Jawa island (excluded Batavia and Banten which never surrended), South Kalimantan and Jambi of Sumatera (as vatsals).

As I mentioned above, no all Jawa people believed that Wahyu Keprabon hided in jungle mentaok. Lots of Kings in Jawa did not believe that. Even, they felt that their royal blood were purer than Ki Ageng Mataram's and they created their own myth to support their legitimation. Thats why they did not surrender freely to Mataram. Lots of their surrender were by bloody war. Logically, if they shared the same believe about the myth of wahyu keprabon of jungle mentaok, soon after Ki Ageng Mataram got jungle mentaok as a reward, they would knee unanimously and voluntarily to Ki Ageng Mataram's descendant (Mataram Kingdom).


Where is the next wahyu keprabon after post Majapahit era?

In Jawa modern era, it is believed (again only to its believers) that the wahyu keprabon is hiding inside Alas Ketonggo (if I am not mistaken it is near Solo).

If you follows recent Indonesian political saga, a lot of prominent politicians get (some are still waiting in long queue for getting) royal titles of Surakarta Kingdom. Frankly speaking, politically and factually, Surakarta Kingdom now is powerless (extremely, Kingdom Surakarta is only a history, no more exist). But why do so many giant Indonesian politicians try to get royal title from there. For nothing? No, there must be a motive in every political move. Some people believe that one of their motives is by having Jawa royal title they feel becoming eligible to get wahyu keprabon which is now still in Alas Ketonggo.

Surprisingly, now, this myth is not monopolized by Jawa people. Some of Solo royal title awardee are from other islands. To some extends, it becomes Indonesia myth (wider by its belivers)

Okay... it's better stopped here and back to keris discussion. Do not as why/where jungle ketonggo is whilst, now, there is not jungle anymore in Indonesia..... hahahahaaaa.... illegal logging and deforestation ARE NOT MYTHS in INDONESIA. Lets fight agianst... alle alle alle

warms regards,

Usmen

[David]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

It is a good question and it is hard to answer. I am afraid if we continue to discuss this matter (wahyu and hutan mentaok), we will break the rule of the game of warung keris. Why? Because the discussion will out of keris topic.

For eluding to be a trespasser (because breaking the law), I would like to ask the moderator (Sir David) and kerislovers to answer Penangsang's question once. So, after that hope we will be back on the track (no more of discussion on wahyu issues)

First of all i would like to thank you Usmen for elevating me to the rank of knighthood. Now i can mingle with the likes of Sir Elton John and Sir Paul McCartney.
I have always maintained that it is impossible to come to any proper understanding of keris in a vacuum. Discussions on subjects like these are therefore imperitive. You are not in violation of any forum rules with this discussion and i would incourage such conversation to continue so as to bring us to a deeper understanding of the Jawanese (and Indonesian) people and their culture(s).Without it an understanding of the keris will always remain elusive.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think the ball is in Pak Ganja's court now:-

Pak Ganja, can you please tell us whether it is the Surakarta school of "kerisology", or the Jogjakarta school of "kerisology" that follows most closely the traditions of olden times, be those olden times taken as Majapahit, Mataram, or some other era?

Dear Alan, Raden Usman, David, Penangsang and All,

Apologize me, for my late responding of Alan’s question. It’s been five days I was “off air” because of my total concentration for another business. Thanks a lot for your patience…

I am sorry Alan, I’d better choose “solo school” and “jogja school” instead of “kerisology”. Would you mind if I do that?

It is quite fair if we compare the cultural products of the best era of both schools. Especially in their keris world. The best of Paku Buwono era in keris making, was happened during the reign of their richest king, Susuhunan Paku Buwono X (1893-1939). Coincidentally, in Jogja, it happened in the same era, during the reign of their richest king too, of Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII (1877-1921).

It was the most peaceful era among the two “rivals”, between Jogja and Solo. And the golden era of Javanese palace royal dances, traditional music, and also keris making, happened too in the reign of these richest kings. One of the two consorts of king PB X, was GKR Hemas – the daughter of HB VII in Jogjakarta. King PB X had two consorts, and more than 34 mistresses. (At least, 34 mistresses had the royal descents…).

Someday, I hope to write more details on the comparison of the style of kerises from these two richest kings of Jogja and Solo. And better too, if I will be able to put the pictures of both era. Keris with tangguh PB X, has really different style with keris with tangguh HB VII. You may see, that kerises with tangguh HB VII was continuing the old style of the older Mataram – say it continuing some older forms from three styles of “older” Mataram: Mataram Senopaten, Sultan Agungan, or even Amangkuratan… (Mr Boedhy Adithya knows better than me on this popular style of Jogja keris). While kerises with tangguh PB X, are really "new" solonese type. The specific form of ganja, for instance, you may be able to recognize quite easily, that the style is real solonese type. Not older Mataram, nor Majapahit.

I hope, this simple explanation answers the question from Alan, for the time being…

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dear Raden Usman,

Speaking about Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII, I'd like to hear the story about "Pendito Ratu" (Priest King?), and "lengser keprabon" (step down from the throne, before the king passed away) which was done by HB VII. After lengser keprabon, HB VII then stayed outside Kraton Jogjakarta. (Jogja then reigned by his son, HB VIII). The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

....The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ufff,
Elementary error.... it should be "a peace succession", instead of "piece"...

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Raden Usman,

Speaking about Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII, I'd like to hear the story about "Pendito Ratu" (Priest King?), and "lengser keprabon" (step down from the throne, before the king passed away) which was done by HB VII. After lengser keprabon, HB VII then stayed outside Kraton Jogjakarta. (Jogja then reigned by his son, HB VIII). The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ganjawulung

Dear Gonjo,

I am so sorry not responding your question soon because I must consider to answer or not for a while. My "data" is quite sensitive to be shared with, especially someone like you who have lots of friends in Djokja. I am sure that some of them are HB VII's offsprings. Who knows that even you are among them At least, who knows that in your blood flows Djokja royal blood.

Finally, I decide to share with you and kerislovers (as cultural background for understanding keris as David said)

According to HB VII.

Mainstream story is just the same as you have already mentioned.

However, other version goes to the opposite direction. HB VII was abdicated by Ndoro Tuan Eyang Wilhelmina (Dutch Colonial Administration). Then he moved (mesanggrah) to Pesanggrahan Ambarukmo.

The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him .

According to Pendito Ratu

Most people refers "Pendito Ratu" based on Kediri Kingdom, King Airlangga or Mahabharata Book (Jawa version): either Puntodewo in post-Great War era or Begawan Abiyoso in pre-Great War era. However, I dont have enough knowledge to tell about wayang (shadow puppet). Perhaps, we can ask KIAI CARITO to elaborate broadly about "lengser keprabon madheg pandhito" (stepping down from the throne becoming a priest)

warm salam,

Usmen

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him

Dear Raden,

This is more interesting for me. What I knew is only "sweet" story version. Just like "Nugroho Notosusanto" (Indonesian contemporary historian) told us about the "Orde Baru" (Indonesian New Era, Suharto era) story. Sweet Suharto...

Just like knowing the intriguing story behind The Beatles. Knowing the conflict between John Lennon vs Paul McCartney, after John married to Japanese Yoko Ono, was not less important than knowing the greatness of these Liverpool brats...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Of course some information from our history were surpressed by the ruler of that time...info that would be detrimental to his throne especially. Even today, Dubya would surpress the info on how many civilian casualties in Iraq. I think that news surpression happens everywhere......

Pak Raden, I dont quite understand, why Raden Ronggo had to be sacrificed to the Ratu Laut Selatan. If he was so powerful, definitely he was an asset to the kingdom, wasnt he?

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Pak Raden, I dont quite understand, why Raden Ronggo had to be sacrificed to the Ratu Laut Selatan. If he was so powerful, definitely he was an asset to the kingdom, wasnt he?

dear Penangsang II,

Raden Ronggo was not sacrified to the Queen of South Sea. In Jawa, it is different. The act to offer (ing)[?] sacrifation to the Queen of South Sea will be considered as "munjung" (I dont know the translation "munjung" in english). Someone who do "munjung" are usually because they want to be rich by shortcut ways [by collaborating with "evil" spirit such as Butoijo (Blue giant), Inthok (no translation), Babi Ngepet (pig which its tail always spin), Kethekputih (White Monkey), Blorong (half human body half snake tail, it is believd by "munjung" to advisor of the Queen of South Sea, called Nyai Roro Kidul).

According to Raden Ronggo. In developing political power point of view, sometimes, someone who has a remakable ability will be considered as a disturbance factor to the established system. It is beyond the capability of the political environment to absorb and to adapt the "remarkable" person's manuvers. It happens till now. For instance, perhaps Datuk Anwar Ibrahim of Malaysia has great vision further and faster than other political actors. For personal achievement, it is remarkable. But in term of political or power movement (corporate point of view), his individual action is considered as a disturbance factor for the whole system. Unhuman but logic, a disturbance factor must be eliminated (erased). If not, there is a possibility that whole system will be collapsed/crimpled[?]. Senopati as A king in New Born Kingdom (or Mahathir as the PM of a 43/45 years old country) knew well how to save greater goals (then by sacrificing individual/smaller satisfaction).

One of the actions of Raden Ronggo. During the banquet for welcoming of King of Banten courtesy visit to Panembahan Senopati, King of Banten asked one of his warrior to perform a spectacle "debus". This warrior invulnerable to swords, keris, tombak and any sharp weapons. To make more impresive, the warrior asked audience to try to hit him by any weapons which they wanted. As a young warrior, Ronggo could not elude from this challence. Raden Ronggo went closer to the warrior and pounded/striked the warrior smoothly with his hand without using sharp weapons. As a result, the warrior's breast broke severely and he died instantly.

It was upsetting his father. Why? Because Banten Kingdom location was in farmost western of Jawa. At that time, Panembahan Senopati wanted to make peace with every Kingdom which were located in western Mataram border. Panembahan Senopati had a plan to launch champaigns to invade kingdoms in eastern Jawa. Panembahan Senopati was very brillyiant. Whilst he declared war to eastern kingdoms, he made peace accords with western ones. Something likes balance of power theory in contemporary politics. The action of his eldest son during the banquet disturbed his hidden agenda: to build an imperium.

Raden Ronggo was sent to the Queen of South Sea. Perhaps, it is euphemism of reality. The intepretation could be: "someone sent (threw away) to the sea (the Queen's palace was in the deep of the sea) means that he senteced dead (either before the law or unlawful)".

warm regards,
Usmen

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

...The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him ....warm salam,

Usmen

Salam Raden Usman,

I think that you are refering to Gusti Djuminah, who would have been HBVIII but instead was put under house arrest (kurantil) untill he died short after the Japanese occupation.

Yes, Gusti Djuminah's descendants are still alive and active in the arts and culture scene in Yogya and Indonesia. And the story of their great grandfather is rather different from yours, there is no cowardise in the memory of the family.

I used to be a student of Bagong Kussudiardjo and his sons are friends of mine.

Salam hangat,
Bram

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

Salam Raden Usman,

And the story of their great grandfather is rather different from yours, there is no cowardise in the memory of the family.

Salam hangat,
Bram

Kiai Carito,

I am sorry if my story is different from. As I explained before, that is why I need a time to consider for responding or not Gonjo's question. My story could be controvertial one. I am just storyteller. Em... unbravery doesnt mean cowardise, does it?

Please, dont tell my story to your friends. I like to live in peace and harmony

warm salam,
Usmen

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Kiai Carito,

I am sorry if my story is different from. As I explained before, that is why I need a time to consider for responding or not Gonjo's question. My story could be controvertial one. I am just storyteller. Em... unbravery doesnt mean cowardise, does it?

Please, dont tell my story to your friends. I like to live in peace and harmony

warm salam,
Usmen

Raden Usmen,

As far as I know there is no unbravery in scrabble...Maybe Alan can help us here being a true-blue native speaker. But oral history about a crown-prince who lost his throne to another prince is likely to have different nuances depending on which side of the family tells it.

Salam hangat kembali,
Bram

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Raden Usman.......

A piece succession in Jogja.

Ganjawulung

Dear Gonjo,

according to Peace succession

Nowadays, there is quite messy succession in Kasunanan Surakarta. There are two princes claiming as the legitimate PB XIII: Hangabehi and Tejowulan.

Some media-celebritists gave comment through newspapers, radios and tv channels urging these PB XIII to follow their ancestors way. Amongst media-celebritists, to follow their ancestors way means to make succession peacefully. However, the conflict during succession tends to erupt (perhaps, till now). Perhaps, to follow their ancestors way is interpreted by two competed princes as it was.

During Mataram Islam era, most succession was unpeace. The first king of Mataram (Panembahan Senopati) killed his eldest son (Raden Ronggo) for the purpose to create strong foundation of the new Jawa Dynasti. Raden Ronggo's divine power was unimaginable. Someone like him in the early of dynasti founding was needed in the battlefields. Meanwhile, as the eldest son of King, he has a legitimation if he demanded the throne.

For a King, giant divine power is not first requirement. Just like football, strikers like Henry and Ronaldo were needed in a team as goal makers in the game. But to be a king of Mataram, he had to have "corporate" thought. In Premiere League, someone like Sir Alex Ferguson or Arsene Wenger of Arsenal are "corporate" person/leader. Raden Ronggo did not have "corporate" thought. His Father decided a harsh way to eliminate him (by killing). According the legend, Panembahan Senopati asked the Queen of South Sea (genie) to take care of Raden Ronggo. Perhaps, it could be intepreted that Raden Ronggo's corpse threw away into the deep of South Sea (Hindia Ocean).

Once it begins, it will never stop. The successor of Panembahan Senopati was killed during deer hunting season and the new king was handicap since he was born. He was abdicated soon after his corronation replaced by Sultan Agung (Sultan the Great). The successor of Sultan Agung was a notorious man since he was young. The age of unpeaceful succession in Mataram is as old as Mataram Kingdom.

Previuos thread I shared about HB VII-VIII. Other story, there is an autobiography book of Partini. She was a daughter of Mangkunegoro VI. In her book, she told that her father (Romo Bagus, bagus means charming, beause his father was handsome) informing her that he juat became new Mangkunegoro. Mangkunegoro V was abdicated then "exciled" to Surabaja. In general, all of descendants of Mataram:Surakarta, Djokja, Mengkunegaran and Pakualaman "always" face the same situation during succession.

So... the legacy of unpeaceful succession, we can still see today. Even, it is beyond the wall of Jawa Palaces. Seemingly, the modern Indonesia follows Mataram ways If Indonesia human right activist was trully killed by arsenicum. Well... you all know arsenicum. It is called "warangan" to etching Keris and spear-head. Poisioning with arsenicum (warangan) was ancient way in Jawa. So... perhaps (assumed that Munir was killed), the killer is a kerislover...... just kidding mates

warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Incidentally, I perhaps should have mentioned this previously, but it has only now occurred to me that it could be something that is not common knowledge.

Pasopati is the usual Jawa spelling of Pasupati. Pasupati is another name for Rudra, the "lord of creatures", creatures in the more specific sense of livestock (pasu= livestock, pati=lord) . Of course, Rudra appears in the Vedas, and his attributes are what later developed into Siwa, who did not appear in the Vedas, so Rudra can be a name for Siwa, just as Pasupati is one of the names of Siwa. Thus, if we term a keris form "Pasupati", or "Pasopati", we are using a name of Siwa.

Gives one something to dwell upon, does it not?

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Alan, Raden Usman........
Someday, I hope to write more details on the comparison of the style of kerises from these two richest kings of Jogja and Solo. And better too, if I will be able to put the pictures of both era.........
Ganjawulung

dear Ganja and kerislovers,

I am really eager to watch images of keris and tombak (spearhead) that are believed as PB X period (tangguh). Even I am eager to hold and to have it someday. Till now, I dont have any kerises and spearheads of PB X period.

So, it is highly appreciated if you may upload and share the images of kerises and tombaks of PB X period. Thnak you very much in advanced.

warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, once again a very beautiful answer, and one with content with which I concur, but once again, your answer does not come anywhere near addressing the question I am attempting to ask.

This is very embarrassing for me, because one of the cornerstones of my profession is the ability to ask questions clearly. Obviously have failed to do this.

I am in two minds as to whether to just let this matter pass, or to try again to phrase my question in a way that will be understood.After due consideration I have decided to try one more time.


I used the phrase "school of kerisology" to indicate the study, practice, beliefs of all things to do with keris. I did this because I did not want to narrow my question to one specific area of keris study nor practice, but to make my question as wide, and as flexible as possible. I have no real objection to use of the word "school" only, but in its normal interpretation in English, this word in this context is taken as applying principally to stylistic aspects of a particular art form.
My question is not directed specifically at the stylistic differences between keris made in Solo style, nor keris made in Jogja style.

I have absolutely no intention of seeking an answer in any way related to stylistic differences between Solo keris and Jogja keris.

My attempt at phrasing the question broadly , with the objective of allowing you room to move in providing an answer failed. It failed, I think, because I was insufficiently clear in respect of the specifics. You have answered in terms of keris physical style, but following on from the exchange that that has generated my further questioning, keris style is really not material to the original question.

To recap:-

On 31st. August, Pak Ganja posted this:-


"The edge of old keris, is usually "serrated" (pls correct me, if I used the wrong English term), because of age, and corrosion. In Solo, the practice of "mbesut" (smoothen the serrated edge, reshape the blade) is permitted. Of course, by the specialist of it. Matang is a wellknown specialist of mbesut practice in Kraton Solo. You may call, such old but reshaped keris as "keris besutan" or "keris larasan".

So, "mbesut" or "nglaras" (verb) keris, contains intention of reshaping, beautifying the corroded keris edge -- of course, without heat treatment. But for they who don't agree with such practice, may call such reshaped keris as "keris ongotan" (negative meaning). Ongotan means "sharpened", like pencil. (True) yogyanese, doesn't practice this..."


On 1st. September Penangsang asked :-

"---Which one of these two schools - Solo & Yogja, follow the tradition of old schools of say, Mataram era? I believe that I read it somewhere that Sultan Agung's time was actually the keris golden era.---"


On 1st. September Pak Ganja replied:-

"---Both "schools" follow most of the old tradition, and only different in certain aspects (sometimes totally different). In certain sense, Solo school is more modern.---"

Penangsang has now clarified his question, and I understand his question to cover all aspects of the keris. Since the original exchange which has generated my query clearly dealt specifically with one practice of keris maintenance which is carried out in Solo, but which is (supposedly) not carried out in Jogja, I shall now refine my question to address the specifics of only keris maintenance.

Please note:- I am not talking about keris style, I am talking about keris maintenance. I am not talking about keris making, I am talking about keris maintenance. I am not questioning present day practice of keris maintenance, I am questioning the tradition of keris maintenance as it applied in a previous era, which for the sake of this question, I shall fix as Mataram.

Pak Ganja, here is my question:-

Based upon your post of 31st August in which you state that certain practices of keris maintenance are acceptable in Solo, but unacceptable in Jogja, and upon your post of 1st. September in which you state that both Solo and Jogja follow old traditions, and in the full understanding that your post of 1st September was in response to a question raised on 1st September which set Mataram as the era to be taken as the point of reference to establish "old traditions", will you please respond to these questions:-

a) in the context of the above quoted posts, and bearing in mind that the Mataram era can be taken to cover a very long period of time, will you please provide a reference year for Mataram, as you intended "Mataram" to be understood in your response of 1st September which was directed at a question that specified "Mataram" as a point of reference.

b) are you able to provide any evidence of "old traditions" in respect of the way in which keris maintenance was carried out in, prior to, or about the year you have specified in your answer to question a).
By "evidence" I mean documentary evidence, or a verbal tradition that can be substantiated by supporting evidence of any kind.

I thank you for your cooperation in my attempts to clarify this for both myself, and for our readers. I had hoped to avoid interrogative questions of this nature, but it seems that when I try to be less than direct, I am also less than clear.

[A. G. Maisey]

I do apologise Pak Ganja, I failed to respond to this question of yours.

"So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of dhapur (jalak) budo?"

Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.

I did not say that I believed this legend.

Of course, you may believe it if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do apologise Pak Ganja, I failed to respond to this question of yours.

"So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of dhapur (jalak) budo?"

Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.

I did not say that I believed this legend.

Of course, you may believe it if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.

Dear Alan,
Do apologize me once again, if I respond to this matter first. This sounds very interesting for me, to hear an information -- that I considered new for me -- that the more sophisticated form of dhapur pasopati was created by Mpu Ramadi in the Javanese year of 152. Then a question raised in my mind: is dhapur pasopati older than keris (jalak) budo?

This is what I quote from the discussion in this post. Mr PenangsangII asked us like this:
And another stupid question, according to tangguhan, original dapor pasopati was created during which era?
And Alan respond in his post in the discussion:
According to legend, the Mpu who first made a keris dapur pasopati was Mpu Ramadi in the Javanese year 152.
PenangsangII asked more in the later post:
...though I have no idea how to guess what year exactly is Jawanese year 152...
Alan responded:
152 Saka would be around 230 AD in the Gregorian calender.
Then I asked Alan:
So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of (jalak) budo?
Alan responded later in one of his post:
Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.
I did not say that I believed this legend.
Of course, you may believe if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.

This info is something new for me, regarding that the form of pasopati which is more complicated than the form of simple dhapur of jalak budo. These pictures below are only showing the three kerises with dhapur pasopati, and one keris with dhapur jalak budo which is believed by most keris lovers in Java, as "the older form of keris" in the past...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I suspect we may have a slight language difficulty here.

The fact that legend attributes dapur Pasopati to an origin in the year 152 Saka does not mean that dapur Pasopati is older than the buda form of keris.

It means only that according to legendary belief dapur Pasopati dates from Saka 152.

This is legend Pak Ganja. Legend. Legends can and sometimes do claim absolutely unbelieveable things. It is best not to confuse legend with fact.

Source of the information is the Damartaji reprint of "Buku Gambar Dhapuripun Dhuwung Saha Waos"