The Kingdom.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gentlemen, with the possible exception of David, I think that perhaps you may be missing the point I was trying to make.

As serious students and collectors of the keris, is it fitting that we devote so much of our discussion time to the classification of keris, and to the affixation of names to various design components?

If the study of the keris is limited to the compilation of an encyclopaedic list of motifs and names, what exactly has that list of words produced as an addition to knowledge?

Those of you who are well acquainted with me will have heard me railing against the "name game" on occasion.

Why?

Why am I so out of step with the bulk of collectors of keris---or anything else, for that matter?

Surely the naming and classification of those things we collect is at the very heart of our interest. Is it not?

Yes, of course it is. If we wish to retain the status of junior clerks forever:- classify it, give it a name, give it an origin, give it a collection number, record it, file it.

I ask you:- is that serious study of an object that is at the very heart of an entire culture?

However, if we wish to learn something about what it is that we have an interest in, if we wish to understand the nature of that which we have an interest in, then we need to extend our study into all of those areas of knowledge that can add to our knowledge of the thing in which we have an interest. If we do not wish to learn, then we might just as well collect postage stamps. Or better yet, Shrek memorabilia.

We have chosen to collect and to study an object that is perhaps the most complex cultural icon in existence.

Something that is worthy of the most intense study, research and mental effort that the human mind can bring to bear on it.

But if we review the content of posts to our discussion group, how often do we come across evidence that we are thinking beyond the mere classification of something?

I think that possibly only one time during the period I have taken an interest in this discussion group have I seen evidence that somebody was really thinking outside the square. I've forgotten the name of the person involved, and I think it was prior to the Warung opening up for business, a thinker put forth the proposition that the ron dha really represented the Hindu "OM". Brilliant thought process. At the moment I do not agree with him, but the thought process that produced this idea is exactly what we need to see more of.

The names of various design motifs, be they forms of the naga, be they dapurs, be they pamors, are only of value if accompanied by attribution of source and time, and even then they are only descriptors. In some of the older forms these descriptors may be able to be subjected to analysis in attempts to extract origin and possible original meaning of the name applied, but for the most part, even that approach could be like chasing rainbows.

The choice is ours:- accumulate objects that we do not understand, or try to gain some understanding of the forces that have produced an icon that can incorporate the highest societal, religious, and artistic ideals of a culture.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gentlemen, with the possible exception of David, I think that perhaps you may be missing the point I was trying to make.

As serious students and collectors of the keris, is it fitting that we devote so much of our discussion time to the classification of keris, and to the affixation of names to various design components?

If the study of the keris is limited to the compilation of an encyclopaedic list of motifs and names, what exactly has that list of words produced as an addition to knowledge?

Those of you who are well acquainted with me will have heard me railing against the "name game" on occasion.

Why?

Why am I so out of step with the bulk of collectors of keris---or anything else, for that matter?

Surely the naming and classification of those things we collect is at the very heart of our interest. Is it not?

Yes, of course it is. If we wish to retain the status of junior clerks forever:- classify it, give it a name, give it an origin, give it a collection number, record it, file it.

I ask you:- is that serious study of an object that is at the very heart of an entire culture?

However, if we wish to learn something about what it is that we have an interest in, if we wish to understand the nature of that which we have an interest in, then we need to extend our study into all of those areas of knowledge that can add to our knowledge of the thing in which we have an interest. If we do not wish to learn, then we might just as well collect postage stamps. Or better yet, Shrek memorabilia.

We have chosen to collect and to study an object that is perhaps the most complex cultural icon in existence.

Something that is worthy of the most intense study, research and mental effort that the human mind can bring to bear on it.

But if we review the content of posts to our discussion group, how often do we come across evidence that we are thinking beyond the mere classification of something?

I think that possibly only one time during the period I have taken an interest in this discussion group have I seen evidence that somebody was really thinking outside the square. I've forgotten the name of the person involved, and I think it was prior to the Warung opening up for business, a thinker put forth the proposition that the ron dha really represented the Hindu "OM". Brilliant thought process. At the moment I do not agree with him, but the thought process that produced this idea is exactly what we need to see more of.

The names of various design motifs, be they forms of the naga, be they dapurs, be they pamors, are only of value if accompanied by attribution of source and time, and even then they are only descriptors. In some of the older forms these descriptors may be able to be subjected to analysis in attempts to extract origin and possible original meaning of the name applied, but for the most part, even that approach could be like chasing rainbows.

The choice is ours:- accumulate objects that we do not understand, or try to gain some understanding of the forces that have produced an icon that can incorporate the highest societal, religious, and artistic ideals of a culture.

It is always a pleasure to read your threat Alan. For me as a javanese, collecting kerises is like an efford to realize that " I am A Javanese".
though in my 27 years old I still consider my self as a clearance kid. Trying to understand about dapur, pamor, warangka, etc....and after a while I will consider my self as a junior clerk..and move on to the next level.

I was once forgoten to be a Javanese, since my family doesn't seem to teach me about javanese tradition, all I understand is, I was born in Solo central Java and my parents are a common civilian came from Demak Central Java.

One day my grandfaher died, and he inheritaged a spear and a keris to his sons and doughters, then the story told me that one of my uncle try to sell the keris to anyone interrested on it. Since he doesn't know anything about keris, then he found him self confuse with no direction to make. from demak to other city and then end up in Solo to my mother. My mom gave him 20.000 rupiah as a mahar and told my uncle to go home. about the spear, my mom just bring it back from Demak.

I was never ever tuoch the keris until I was 25 years old. When I first time tuoch it, unshealth it, smell it's sandallwood aroma. looked at the detail of the keris and spear...then I found that I'm not a complete Javanese without having a keris, further I'm not a complete Javanese without knowing about keris. the metal, the technique of keris making, the tradition, ang the filosofy within the keris.

I found that old javanese people I used to talk with were very polite, honest, low profile . They knew exactly where to put them self in any situation. those wise words came out of their mouth came to my ears as melody and just went through my brain and my heart. I was so amazed.

You've been living in Solo for a very long time Alan. You know exactly what I mean. I miss the old Java that you told me about. when the road are still empty, when the market not so crouwded. when the people are not obsessed with materiality.

Then now I feel more better, after I bought my first and second kerises then a bought the book ' ensiklopedia keris' and ' keris antara mistik dan nalar'
then I still look for other book to read and other keris to learn about,l collect another keris and sword...I found my self happy with it.

thanks guys ...

[BluErf]

Which is why esteemed members like youself, Alan, and pak Ganjawulung, Boedhi Adhitya and others whose names may have slipped my increasingly forgetful mind, are especially valuable to and honoured in this forum.

[David]

Alan, the forumite that you refer to with the OM/ron dha theory is Pusaka and he does still post here from time to time. Though we were sometimes at odds theoretically, i would like to see more of him. I agree that the thought process was indeed brilliant, though i also did not exactly agree with his conclusions. Still, this is exactly the type of thinhking that i would like to encourage here on the forum. There will always be disagreement in such discussion and frankly i believe that is a good thing, forcing us to think outside the box.
I think we can only go so far as a "show-and-tell" venue and while i like to know names and classification i agree that at the end of the day they really tell us next to nothing about the true nature of the keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferrylaki, it seems to me that times in the past always seem to be better when we remember them.
We tend to give those times a value that maybe they didn't have.

I can remember when I was a kid I could wander around the area where I lived with a rifle dangling from one hand, or slung over my shoulder. I could walk into the local general store and buy an ice cream, or some acid drops with my rifle in my hand. I could walk out of the general store, cross the road, and take a shot at something. Nobody noticed. No Men in Black dropping out of helicopters. No tactical response police. Just dusty roads and a barefoot kid with a .22.

In 1955 I could ride a pushbike along a major highway for 12 hours and when I got where I was going I could announce that I'd counted a hundred or so cars that had passed me during the day.At that time only three people we knew owned motor vehicles.

But in 1950 my father earnt somewhere around the equivalent of $10 per week. There were no refrigerators, we used iceboxes.No washing machines. If your family owned a radio you were doing OK. If you owned a windup gramaphone (record player) you were considered to be fairly well off. Milk was bought in a billycan from a man who brought it to the door. Shoes were for special occasions, and never worn during wet weather. Christmas time and birthdays you got clothes and books. In coinage there were pennies and half-pennies, and they did have value.You sold old newspapers to the butcher for one penny per pound.

I bought my first bicycle at age twelve from money earnt doing jobs for neighbours. Took me about two years to save up for it. It cost twelve pounds, present day coinage, about $24. This was roughly equivalent to two weeks pay for a qualified tradesman.

This was working class Australia circa 1950.It was not some developing country.

If people were not materialistic it was because they did not have anything to be materialistic about. Going to bed warm and with a full belly meant you were doing pretty good. But that did not mean that we did not know the value of money.

I suggest that all memories of the past are distorted by time:- I remember that I could walk around the neighbourhood taking shots at birds and rabbits : I forget that I went barefoot and was invariably and constantly cold in winter.

If you have a longing for Solo during the late 1960's and early 1970's, I suggest that perhaps you might give a little thought to some of the slightly less desireable aspects of life in Indonesia at that time. There were many, and if you think 1998-2000 was bad, have a talk to somebody about the mid 1960's.

[Michel]

Quote from Alan "Surely the naming and classification of those things we collect is at the very heart of our interest. Is it not?

Yes, of course it is. If we wish to retain the status of junior clerks forever:- classify it, give it a name, give it an origin, give it a collection number, record it, file it.

I ask you:- is that serious study of an object that is at the very heart of an entire culture?

However, if we wish to learn something about what it is that we have an interest in, if we wish to understand the nature of that which we have an interest in, then we need to extend our study into all of those areas of knowledge that can add to our knowledge of the thing in which we have an interest. If we do not wish to learn, then we might just as well collect postage stamps. Or better yet, Shrek memorabilia.

We have chosen to collect and to study an object that is perhaps the most complex cultural icon in existence. " Unquote

Alan,
I think you are bit harsh on us beginners. To reach the point "where we understand the nature of that which we have an interest in, then we need to extend our study into all of those areas of knowledge that can add to our knowledge of the thing in which we have an interest. " we need to learn the basic : the letter of this new alphabet, then the words, then understand the sentences. Once we will have reached your level of knowledge, you will not have to push us to look at the heart of the matter.
I have seen that in many other area of knowledge (from sailing a boat to climbing mountains, from leaning a language to studying a religion), until you are familiar with a certain number of words and expressions and have understood them, you cannot really approach the heart of the field you are interest in. With our classification, we are learning the alphabet (and may be a few words) of kerisology !
Thank you for your patience so far. I hope you can bear with us for a little more time because we need time.(or at least I need time! after a certain age, new words and ideas may come in your brain fast but they run out even faster !)
Take care,
Michel

[A. G. Maisey]

Michel, it grieves me that you regard my remarks as harsh. I my feeling was that I was providing a gentle prompt that might cause a few people to begin to think about things other than the names that might be applicable to any particular form or design motif, if indeed the object under discussion was in fact of that form.

What I can see is a lot of people doing something that I myself once did, that I now consider to have been largely a waste of time.

However, this does depend upon what one's objective is in taking an interest in the keris.

If the objective is to accumulate a large number of keris of various forms, carrying various pamor motifs, with various iconic representations depicted in the blade carving, and from diverse areas of SE Asia, then the ability to affix names to each of those keris and to provide an approximation of age and point of origin is a worthwhile and necessary part of that person's interest.

However, if the objective is to create a collection of excellence, rather than a collection of diversity, then names and points of origin are really only of secondary interest. Possibly the collector who seeks excellence would serve his interests better by attempting to gain an understanding of the elements of quality in craft and artistic expression, as those concepts apply to the keris.

It may be that the interest of the person involved lays in attempting to gain an understanding of the origin and nature of the keris. If this is the case, then such a person needs to attempt to extend his learning and investigation into areas that may not seem to relate directly to the keris.

Ultimately the direction that one takes in pursuit of one's interest is one's own choice, and a reflection of one's own nature.

The person who wants a large, diverse collection is no more worthy of respect, nor of contempt, than the person who wants a collection which enshrines artistic excellence, and neither of these people are any more worthy of respect, nor of contempt, than the person who does not own a single keris, but who has an in depth understanding of the keris in Jawa during the 14th. Century.

In fact, the separate interests of each of these people supports the interest of each of the others. If the World of the Keris is viewed as a large organisation, an organisation that now has a multi-national nature, each person in our Keris World has a role to play. The person who is the pure collector is no less important than the person who is the pure researcher. Probably most of us combine several functions relating to keris interest, but have a tendency to favour one over another.

Imagine for a moment that in our World of the Keris there were no pure collectors. None to accumulate, name, record and file. If these people did not exist, how could the pure researcher function? In fact, he could not, as he would have nothing to research.

No Michel, I was not being harsh. I was trying to very gently cause those of us with an interest in the keris to ask themselves if perhaps there might be more to be gained from that interest if they altered only a little, their orientation to the subject.

Consider this:- if I were to come across a puzzling carving on a blade that depicted a singa barong wearing a tophat, what would be the most valuable information, the name of a keris with such a carving, or its meaning? What did its original owner call it---if indeed he called it anything---or why did its original owner order its production? Perhaps its production was not ordered at all, so why did its maker invest time and money in its production?

When we attempt to come to an understanding, on any level, of the keris, there are many questions that can be asked.

Sometimes it can be more difficult to construct an adequate question, than it is to provide an adequate answer to a question.

My remarks were not intended to be harsh:- they were intended to prompt thought.

[Michel]

Alan, your posts are always interesting,they achieve their objectives and they force us to think.
I reacted essentially because of your sentence : I think that possibly only one time during the period I have taken an interest in this discussion group have I seen evidence that somebody was really thinking outside the square, followed by David information, that that question was "the OM/ron dha theory".

I have not understood the question but translated it for myself with about the same meaning as: if I were to come across a puzzling carving on a blade that depicted a singa barong wearing a tophat, what would be the most valuable information, the name of a keris with such a carving, or its meaning?

In a brutal summary, this meant that the few thousands posts of warung kopi were almost wasted and that we were, with a few exceptions, a happy bunch of brainless junior clerks concentrating on a wrong approach to the keris. I am convince that that was not what you meant to say, but that is what I understood.

The difference of level between your knowledge about Indonesia, the keris, its symbolism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, the geography of Indonesia and the related local cultures and my culture on the same subjects is so large that words may not carry the same messages and meaning. The question of
"the OM/ron dha theory" is a good exemple. It was meaningless for me.

Secondly if you and a few others are really studying and making research on the keris, it is certainly not the case of many members who are just trying to understand what is a keris, why is it so important, why isn't it a weapon only (or at all), why is it so decorated, complicated to produce, why so many pamor, dapur, areng, etc.

As you have said in your last post, there are many ways of being a keris collector, each one of us looks for something different and excellence may not be the criteria of selection that can be afforded !

Finally Alan and David, (as I think David understood you better than most) if we do it wrong, can you help us, guide us, on the right way ? But please remember that there is a large gap of knowledge between your knowledges and mine (and may be of others) and if the complete Mahabharata has to be read and understood to be able to raise a question as the "singa barong with a tophat"(!) I at least will need some time!
I remember Dietrich Drescher : there are many many more questions about keris, than answers.
I think that your remarks achieved your objective: provoke thoughts.
Thank you Alan.
Kind and respectful regards
Michel