How would you define this kris

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

I agree with Alan, this is not "sombro type keris",
Sombro type kerises are iras (one piece) type. And this is not. Things that people called "sombro type kerises" are usually very old and primitive. Almost no pamor or just "sanak" (not glitter). Please see these "sombro type" kerises (pictures) -- even they are probably made in different era. (Sorry, a little bit rusty. But someday, I'll clean them for you...). You may see the "spin" in the end of the pesi (tang) and also a hole or trace of hole in it.

The dhapur? Surely, this is a "brojol". The most simple dhapur in keris, with only one detail that shows the "gandhik" or front base of keris blade... The one with a hole in the gandhik, called "semar getak" or "semar betak" dhapur...

I agree with Alan too, about the stories on hole in sombro type kerises. In addition for the stories, some people in Java believed, that such "sombro type of kerises" were sold by Ni Mbok Sombro during the wandering (adventure) before becoming a well-known Pajajaran kingdom (West Java) empu. Ni Mbok Sombro, believed to sell these types of kerises in "pasar" (traditional markets, village market) as kitchen knives... This is just a peanut opinion, based on my simple knowledge on such kerises..

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 06:00 AM

Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

Maybe it is too imaginative. But at least your pembantu's finger will be safe. Just put the thumb in the gandhik, because not all the edge of the blade is sharp... Of course, put a wooden handle in the tang, before putting the thumb on the gandhik...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 08:24 AM

Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables?

They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down.

Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers.

Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables?

They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down.

Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers.

Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.

And what do you think about old "pangot"? Some pangot are from "budha" iron...

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 09:00 AM

In which way?

Can you phrase the question to address a specific question?

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In which way?

Can you phrase the question to address a specific question?

You maybe able to cut meat with "pangot" with such way (one hand hold the handle of the blade, and the other hand in the back of the non-edge blade). Pangot is an old form of kind of knife.. And of course, you cannot do it the same way with the kind of "sombro" type, the type of simple "keris" in the pictures...

Michel · 23rd August 2007, 09:39 PM

Sorry for being so late in answering but but I had and still have, two grandchildren around and that takes time and attention. There has been a surge of exchange on this thread that is amazing. I will try to answer in the right order

Raden Usman Djogja : I join 4 photos of what I understood you wanted.They cannot be sharp all the way. I do not see luks along that blade but very tiny waviness along the edge of the blade if you look at it with one eye and a very small angle from strait along the edge.
I cannot treat it with warangan, as it not available here. What I could do is a lime/lemon acid treatment, but that is not enough, to my experience, to clearly reveal a pamor even a "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk" !
Sorry Usman, but after pamor udan mas, I do not understand. I really have to follow Alan latest advice and purchase the right kind of dictionary !

Alan: I will follow your advice ( as usual !) and try to find the Echolls and Shadilly Dictionary . Thanks for this advice.
Yes the pesi has been added after the forging of the blade and for all practical purpose I do not understand why and how they forge the blade without a proper pesi to hold it while hammering it? May be the original holding piece, that was part of the blade, broke and they had to heat weld a new pesi ? Alan, you know much better than most , how would you handle such a blade.

PenangsangII Yes Nik Rashidin was one of a kind, but not all what he said had to be taken for word of gospel, for two reasons, when he spoke English he was not at ease and often could not find the right word and second, what I understood may not have been what he meant to say !

David The sheath has been added later, it is of poor craftsmanship and it does not fit well the blade. in particular where the crescent/star is situated.

PenangsangII You say :"Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine." I like that, as I cannot find warangan here. But theses two acids are not sufficient. My special advisor Nik Rashidin, gave me his formula without warangan and it worked on a Madura blade that I though without pamor but that finally had one.

At the end of this long discussion, I am a bit confuse about that keris.
In summary: it is a nice peninsular keris(Terengganu) , ganja iras, dapur brojol, pamor mlumah, forged for its talismanic properties with a little hole at the end of the pesi, (wall hanging or other reasons ')
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 11:21 PM

Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape.

With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know.

With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal.

David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon.

The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world.

If some of the things that I sometimes write are less than obvious, it is because of my own lack of care in choice of phrasing to make those things obvious, or because of the inability of the reader to adequately understand the naunces which can occur in written English.

Because I am a charitable man I prefer to accept the blame for my own inadequacies in phrasing, rather than to point the finger at anybody's inadequacies in understanding.I would prefer to humble myself with an apology, rather than to use those horrible little emoticons.

PenangsangII · 24th August 2007, 03:16 AM

Wow...you guys are simply amazing, it's around 10.20 am here in Malaysia, and I have already learned so many things

.

Thanks guys and cheers.

David · 24th August 2007, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon.

Yes Alan, i understand it is not your style. It was merely a suggestion.
I wouldn't be too hard on yourself though. While the language may be beautiful and complete,with communication though just words, without the addition of voice inflection and body gestures that accompany conversion in person, nuances can easily be lost, especially amongst readers that are not native to the English language. Still it is amazing that we communicate at all btween countries, languages and cultures. All and all i'd say we are all doing a pretty good job of it.

Marcokeris · 24th August 2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world.

The primary reason

Michel · 27th August 2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape.

With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know.

With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal.

David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon.

The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world.

Thank you Alan, for this little lesson on keris forging. For the blades I have forged, I have utilized the system you mention: a couple of cut and then forging the end as required. On forging I am not going to dispute any points with you, you know so much more.
But on languages I beg to disagree on your statement: "It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world"

Many other languages have the same possibilities and are even better. German is quasi unbeatable in technical matters, French and Italian are very good on love and sentimental matters, Spanish is unbeaten in some special fields as bullfighting ! If you care to learn Inuit, you will discover un unbelievable number of words and expressions for ice, snow, wind and weather. In Mongolian they have created a complete vocabulary for all matters concerning horses and their environment. The local languages are the best in their own environment.
English is a very efficient, useful, versatile and beautiful language but it is not these qualifications that have made English the International Language. PenangsangII has identified one of the main reason: The past presence of the British around the world, but I think the second reason, that you are not going to like very much, is that English is an easy language to learn to speak poorly but that allows you to transmit an idea, a message. Look at all the Pidging English existing. To speak English like you do or other native English speakers do, is difficult for a non native speaker. But to speak Kitchen or Airport English is easy, we all do.
Alan, we all appreciate not only your English but your way of expressing yourself with humor and being facetious ! English was however not the subject of this thread ! But a question of classification to which I should not answer here but on the other thread: The Kigdom
Cheers !
Michel

23rd August 2007, 09:39 PM	#8
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Sorry for being so late in answering but but I had and still have, two grandchildren around and that takes time and attention. There has been a surge of exchange on this thread that is amazing. I will try to answer in the right order Raden Usman Djogja : I join 4 photos of what I understood you wanted.They cannot be sharp all the way. I do not see luks along that blade but very tiny waviness along the edge of the blade if you look at it with one eye and a very small angle from strait along the edge. I cannot treat it with warangan, as it not available here. What I could do is a lime/lemon acid treatment, but that is not enough, to my experience, to clearly reveal a pamor even a "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk" ! Sorry Usman, but after pamor udan mas, I do not understand. I really have to follow Alan latest advice and purchase the right kind of dictionary ! Alan: I will follow your advice ( as usual !) and try to find the Echolls and Shadilly Dictionary . Thanks for this advice. Yes the pesi has been added after the forging of the blade and for all practical purpose I do not understand why and how they forge the blade without a proper pesi to hold it while hammering it? May be the original holding piece, that was part of the blade, broke and they had to heat weld a new pesi ? Alan, you know much better than most , how would you handle such a blade. PenangsangII Yes Nik Rashidin was one of a kind, but not all what he said had to be taken for word of gospel, for two reasons, when he spoke English he was not at ease and often could not find the right word and second, what I understood may not have been what he meant to say ! David The sheath has been added later, it is of poor craftsmanship and it does not fit well the blade. in particular where the crescent/star is situated. PenangsangII You say :"Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine." I like that, as I cannot find warangan here. But theses two acids are not sufficient. My special advisor Nik Rashidin, gave me his formula without warangan and it worked on a Madura blade that I though without pamor but that finally had one. At the end of this long discussion, I am a bit confuse about that keris. In summary: it is a nice peninsular keris(Terengganu) , ganja iras, dapur brojol, pamor mlumah, forged for its talismanic properties with a little hole at the end of the pesi, (wall hanging or other reasons ') Michel Attached Images

23rd August 2007, 06:00 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

23rd August 2007, 08:24 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables? They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down. Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers. Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.

23rd August 2007, 09:00 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In which way? Can you phrase the question to address a specific question?

23rd August 2007, 11:21 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape. With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know. With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal. David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon. The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world. If some of the things that I sometimes write are less than obvious, it is because of my own lack of care in choice of phrasing to make those things obvious, or because of the inability of the reader to adequately understand the naunces which can occur in written English. Because I am a charitable man I prefer to accept the blame for my own inadequacies in phrasing, rather than to point the finger at anybody's inadequacies in understanding.I would prefer to humble myself with an apology, rather than to use those horrible little emoticons.

24th August 2007, 03:16 AM	#10
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Wow...you guys are simply amazing, it's around 10.20 am here in Malaysia, and I have already learned so many things . Thanks guys and cheers.